Delayed delivery, apparently not sellers fault!

[glass-in-motion]

After reading about the PayPal 180 day return policy in the UK and US, I thought I'd check on the ACCC website for Australian laws regarding returns.

I found a booklet called 'Consumer Guarantees: A guide for consumers'.

Now, I have always believed, as a seller, I was responsible if an item is lost in the mail or delayed, but according to this booklet I'm not responsible.

Below is taken from page 17 of the booklet

You are not entitled to claim against a seller where the failure to meet a consumer guarantee is due to:

• something someone else said or did, unless it was their agent or employee

• an event that was beyond the sellers control (for example bad weather or delays in delivery)

Does this mean it's okay for sellers to claim, in their listings, that  "they are not responsible for items lost or delayed by Australia Post" ?

Would appreciate other sellers thoughts on this.

Clare

[digital*ghost]

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@yarravalleywoodcraft wrote:

Does this mean it's okay for sellers to claim, in their listings, that  "they are not responsible for items lost or delayed by Australia Post" ?

Would appreciate other sellers thoughts on this.

Clare

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I will try to give a general summary of things - as far as I know them, after some detailed research a few years ago as well as information / advice provided by others on the forum.

A seller is not legally obliged to be financially responsible for items lost in the post. According to current laws, the burden of risk is on the buyer, and they are deemed to accept that risk if they choose a delivery method that does not carry any insurance / compensation. 

If a buyer chooses a delivery method that does provide compensation (eg insurance, registered), the seller is legally obliged to seek that compensation and pass it on to the buyer, or sign over the right to claim for it to the buyer. 

If a buyer requests an insured service but the seller fails to use the service requested by the buyer, they can be held financially responsible for items lost in transit.

All of that is outside of PayPal and eBay policies.

One of eBay's policies is that a seller is not allowed to state in their listings that they won't take responsibility for items once posted, so you can't actually say it here, but neither eBay nor PayPal can do anything about it if you decide to practice it anyway. 

The big but is, while PayPal will only require a seller to prove postage (not delivery), the forms of evidence they will accept are much narrower than what would be acceptable in something like a court. If a seller can not provide evidence of postage to PayPal's satisfaction, the seller will lose a dispute despite any disclaimers they make about responsibility (the presumption is, if you can't prove you posted it, we will conclude that you didn't). If a seller does prove postage, the buyer's claim will be unsuccessful, whether it can be proven it was never received by them or not. 

[digital*ghost]

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@yarravalleywoodcraft wrote:

After reading about the PayPal 180 day return policy in the UK and US, I thought I'd check on the ACCC website for Australian laws regarding returns.

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I also wanted to mention that one of PayPal's recent update to their Terms of Service is that if you sell to a buyer overseas, you are bound to comply with their Buyer Protection policies.

In other words, if you sell to someone in Oz, they will currently be able to open a dispute for up to 45 days. If you sell to someone in the US or UK, they will be able to file a claim against you for up to 180 days. 

[glass-in-motion]

Thanks digital*ghost. 

Though I've been pretty lucky over the years where lost parcels are concerned (touch wood), it didn't make sense that a seller was responsible for something Australia Post has a problem with i.e. delivering parcels!

Clare

[5kazam]

DG, more than happy to be corrected here.  

But some reading on the Former eBay Sellers FB site, has indicated that the new PayPal T&C's (180 days return), effective from November 18th, applies to ALL sites which have PayPal as a payment provider.  

And if my understanding is correct, these new T&C's will then also apply to eBay Australia, not just UK and US.

[black*poppy]

Easy to check on the Paypal Australia website.

NO mention in T&C about 180 days - clearly talks about 45 day returns through dispute process.

Also not mentioned in the Policy Updates section.

Happy to be corrected if you can find a reference.

https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/ua/upcoming-policies-full

[digital*ghost]

Not as yet, at least as far as I know, and according to the info on the Aus. PayPal site. The 180 days is currently limited to buyers in the UK and US, but their rules will apply if you sell to someone there - the last notification I received for PayPal update to the UA is as follows, anyway (effective 24 Sepember).

When you receive a payment through our Services, usually we have not yet received payment in full from the buyer. From the time that you receive the payment, you will owe us an amount equivalent to the amount of the transaction (including any applicable fees imposed on us), and that liability will be cancelled only when we receive irrevocable payment in full. Events that could lead to us not receiving payment in full include:

1. The funds received being later invalidated for any reason;
2. The funds received being subject to a Chargeback;
3. A Reversal occurring;
4. Our determination under the PayPal Buyer Protection Policy or Payment Review that the funds received should be returned or reversed; or
5. You having received payment from a PayPal account holder in another country and we determine under the PayPal Buyer Protection Policy of that country that the funds received should be returned or reversed.

This policy is why I'm concerned about the PayAfter Delivery options some buyer get, TBH. If PayPal give credit to the buyer by crediting a seller's account with funds themselves, the above makes it as though they provided credit to the seller - i.e. "we got an IOU from the buyer, so we sent the seller funds and told them it was cool to post. Turns out we couldn't get the funds from the buyer, so guess what... SURPRISE REVERSAL!"

[5kazam]

Also seems like PayPal have got sellers by the short and curlies whichever way they turn.

I think some more investigation into this 180 days return policy needs to be undertaken.  

A couple of the comments I read today effectively said: Wear it for 5 months 3 weeks, say it is defective - how on earth can something be returned in the as bought condition after that length of time!! .  Play with it for 5m,3/4w, break it, no worries PayPal will cover the initial cost, and I don't have to return.  And I read that PayPal will just take the money out of an account, or if not enough in PP, straight out of a seller's bank account.

eBay already has the nomer 'FEEBAY', it is quickly turning into 'FREEBAY'.

[glass-in-motion]

Would PayPal be able to get away with this here?  We have laws in place to cover sellers and buyers.  We beat them once, maybe we'll have to do it again should they try this ridiculous idea

[5kazam]

It appears that seller's rights don't have a great deal of meaning when it comes to PayPal.  There have been comments on quite a few threads where the seller has provided PayPal with all required evidence as to postage, tracking, etc., and PayPal have taken no notice whatsoever - seller loses goods and money.  

PayPal is owned by eBay = FREEBAY.  Buyer wins.  Which means you may as well take your items to the local charity shop and donate them.  Won't cost you a red cent to do it that way.  The FREEBAY way can cost you plenty.