topic Re: Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable? in Community Spirit

Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable?

the_bob_delusion — Wed, 12 Jun 2013 03:25:15 GMT

Billions of people around the world believes in God(s) because they believe certain miracle stories to be true? But can you truly verify a miracle historically?

By miracle, let's define it as an intervention by a supernatural being that defies natural laws. So not just something with a very low probability like winning tattslotto twice or recovering from a deadly cancer.

So when Christians say history points to the resurrection of Jesus which is obviously a miracle. Do you think there's sufficient evidence to prove it happened?

If you don't believe Jesus Rose from the dead, or that Mohommad flew to Heaven on a winged horse, what evidence would convince you that it did indeed happen?

Re: Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable?

i-need-a-martini — Wed, 12 Jun 2013 03:28:16 GMT

No evidence required for a good story created to explain the unexplainable.

Re: Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable?

the_bob_delusion — Wed, 12 Jun 2013 08:34:31 GMT

No evidence required for a good story created to explain the unexplainable.

If you asked most CHristians they believe that the resurrection is a historical fact. Without the Resurrection there's no CHristianity so therefore you assume they're basing it on historical evidence. But how can you possibly prove a miracle?

Re: Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable?

azureline** — Wed, 12 Jun 2013 08:38:46 GMT

For some, no proof will ever be enough, for others no proof is necessary.

Re: Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable?

the_great_she_elephant — Wed, 12 Jun 2013 08:46:42 GMT

For some, no proof will ever be enough, for others no proof is necessary.

But to be fair, Az, for most, some proof is at least desirable.

The problem with historical miracles is that we are too far removed from the time and place know what really happened and the technology which might have proved or disproved them simply wasn't available at the time.

Re: Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable?

the_bob_delusion — Wed, 12 Jun 2013 08:49:01 GMT

well I'm looking it from an academic point of view.

Do you think there's good historical evidence to demonstrate that jesus bodily rosed from the dead Quilts?

I've been studying this recently and the Christian apologist say that Jesus can only raise from the dead if there's a God. My problem with that is the only reason to believe in a God is if Jesus did raise from the dead. So it's circular reasoning.

It's like what Most Christian say. THe bible is the true word of God. How do you know? cos' the bible says so.

Re: Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable?

the_great_she_elephant — Wed, 12 Jun 2013 09:02:48 GMT

You could believe in God without believing in Jesus at all. Both Judaism and Islam draw heavily on the Old Testament.

Re: Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable?

the_bob_delusion — Wed, 12 Jun 2013 09:16:57 GMT

You could believe in God without believing in Jesus at all. Both Judaism and Islam draw heavily on the Old Testament.

But apparently they believe in different Gods. So obviously a Christian wouldn't believe Jesus rose from the dead if a CHristian God did not exist. The would logically say why would an Islamic God raise Jesus from the dead.

Re: Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable?

rabbitearbandicoot — Wed, 12 Jun 2013 09:18:49 GMT

Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable?

Are Historical Abiogenesis Stories Verifiable?

Are Historical Evolution Stories Verifiable?

Re: Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable?

rabbitearbandicoot — Wed, 12 Jun 2013 09:20:33 GMT

But apparently they believe in different Gods. So obviously a Christian wouldn't believe Jesus rose from the dead if a CHristian God did not exist. The would logically say why would an Islamic God raise Jesus from the dead.

No Bob they both believe in the same God - the ONE GOD - they just have different names for him.

Re: Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable?

the_bob_delusion — Wed, 12 Jun 2013 09:34:10 GMT

No Bob they both believe in the same God - the ONE GOD - they just have different names for him.

Let's not debate the theology. But just look at history. There's plenty of miracles in biblical times, zero in modern times. How can any of the ancient miracles be historically verified? THis is an academic question from a historical point of view, Not theology. Theologian thinks it a historical claim, but I just don't see it. I see it as a theological claim.

Re: Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable?

rabbitearbandicoot — Wed, 12 Jun 2013 09:36:53 GMT

Let's not debate the theology. But just look at history. There's plenty of miracles in biblical times, zero in modern times. How can any of the ancient miracles be historically verified? THis is an academic question from a historical point of view, Not theology. Theologian thinks it a historical claim, but I just don't see it. I see it as a theological claim.

There are some that would debate that.

Re: Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable?

rabbitearbandicoot — Wed, 12 Jun 2013 09:38:03 GMT

I notice that you ignored my questions?

Are Historical Abiogenesis Stories Verifiable?

Are Historical Evolution Stories Verifiable?

Re: Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable?

the_bob_delusion — Wed, 12 Jun 2013 09:41:46 GMT

I notice that you ignored my questions?

Are Historical Abiogenesis Stories Verifiable?

Are Historical Evolution Stories Verifiable?

We don't know how abiogenesis occured. How do you verify something that you don't know the answer to???

Evolution makes predictions and is falsifiable. So evolution has been verified thru archeology, morphology, molecular biology, genetic sequencing. It's so far passed every one of them. So I really don't get why you're asking such a simple question.

Re: Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable?

rabbitearbandicoot — Wed, 12 Jun 2013 09:46:02 GMT

"Evolution makes predictions and is falsifiable. So evolution has been verified thru archeology, morphology, molecular biology, genetic sequencing. It's so far passed every one of them. So I really don't get why you're asking such a simple question."

falsifiable - you got that right - lol.

Can you explain to me how evolution has been verified through those sciences - well, just pick one.

Re: Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable?

rabbitearbandicoot — Wed, 12 Jun 2013 09:48:19 GMT

"We don't know how abiogenesis occured. How do you verify something that you don't know the answer to ???"

We don't know how God created everything from nothing, but you ask for verification of that.

Re: Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable?

the_bob_delusion — Wed, 12 Jun 2013 12:34:52 GMT

Evolution is well accepted by the religious and non religious so I prefer to discuss the OP. If you have a better theory then by all means let's hear it.

What I am really after is can historians show that any miracle story likely happen and what sort of evidence would be necessary? So for the non believers here, what sort of evidence would you need to be convinced that God raised Jesus from the dead?

I was watching Q and A and Fred Nile said there's historical evidence that Jesus was the son of God. I know no such evidence exist. So he is making a theological claim not historical unless someone can explain to me otherwise.

Re: Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable?

ufo_investigations — Wed, 12 Jun 2013 12:39:13 GMT

Billions of people around the world believes in God(s) because they believe certain miracle stories to be true? But can you truly verify a miracle historically?

By miracle, let's define it as an intervention by a supernatural being that defies natural laws. So not just something with a very low probability like winning tattslotto twice or recovering from a deadly cancer.

So when Christians say history points to the resurrection of Jesus which is obviously a miracle. Do you think there's sufficient evidence to prove it happened?

If you don't believe Jesus Rose from the dead, or that Mohommad flew to Heaven on a winged horse, what evidence would convince you that it did indeed happen?

The aliens put us here. No miracle. Earth is just a colony.

Re: Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable?

the_bob_delusion — Wed, 12 Jun 2013 12:41:14 GMT

The aliens put us here. No miracle. Earth is just a colony.

That's a good theory but you do need to explain where Aliens come from.

Re: Are Historical Miracle Stories Verifiable?

ufo_investigations — Wed, 12 Jun 2013 12:42:40 GMT

Depends which alien family you're talking about. Some come from 3.5 light years away, others from 39 light years.