topic Re: Is Faith Compatible with Reason? in Community Spirit

Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

the_bob_delusion — Fri, 02 Aug 2013 05:21:16 GMT

Is faith compatible with science or reality?

Do you think you have to forego rational thinking to have faith?

Do you have faith based on reason?

If science contradicts scripture, which then do you accept?

Can you have faith and also accept science? e.g. Can you accept evolution if it goes against scripture?

When a Muslim tells you that Mohommad flew to heaven on a winged horse, is this based on reason/science?

Re: Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

lakeland27 — Fri, 02 Aug 2013 06:01:43 GMT

Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

Why yes, i believe it is. and that isn't personal experience, more observation. but there is evidence of what i'm saying too.. think monastery. monks.. science astronomy medicine and military ideas (as well as some good liquor and cheese) poured out of these places between inquisitions and crusades. so there is or have been places where the two can co-exist.. today we have the salvation army employing largely secular staff (qualified) so, there you have a meeting of faith and reason i'd say.

Re: Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

*mrgrizz* — Fri, 02 Aug 2013 06:04:48 GMT

i keep telling you........go to bible college

Re: Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

*crikey*mate* — Fri, 02 Aug 2013 06:05:45 GMT

1) Yes

2) No

3) Yes

4) Science and Scripture are the same thing. Scripture is how man interpreted and recorded events as they happened at that tije in history. Science is the term that man gives to those same interpretations and recorded events in more modern and advanced times. Only the future will reveal if what is accepted as Scientific fact today, will remain so at some point in the future.Scripture should not be confused with Faith.

5) Yes

6) Both - see number 4 above.

Re: Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

the_bob_delusion — Fri, 02 Aug 2013 07:05:57 GMT

@lakeland27 wrote:
Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

Why yes, i believe it is. and that isn't personal experience, more observation. but there is evidence of what i'm saying too.. think monastery. monks.. science astronomy medicine and military ideas (as well as some good liquor and cheese) poured out of these places between inquisitions and crusades. so there is or have been places where the two can co-exist.. today we have the salvation army employing largely secular staff (qualified) so, there you have a meeting of faith and reason i'd say.

You're missing the point. The question is not can a person of faith be reasonable or be logical in other areas of their life. Ofcourse they can. But do a person of faith have to throw reason and logic out the door to maintain their religious beliefs. e.g. Can a religious person truly believe a cracker literally turns into the body of a 1st century Jew after saying some latin words over it and still call their reason logical or is faith not compatible with reason.

Re: Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

rabbitearbandicoot — Sat, 03 Aug 2013 00:50:17 GMT

Is faith compatible with science or reality? - Of course it is!

Do you think you have to forego rational thinking to have faith? No.

Do you have faith based on reason? Yes.

If science contradicts scripture, which then do you accept? Show me where it does and I'll let you know.

Can you have faith and also accept science? e.g. Can you accept evolution if it goes against scripture?" Where does evolution go against scripture? Now, if you had asked does Abiogenesis go against scripture, that's a whole different question - but you know that already don't you?.

Re: Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

the_bob_delusion — Sat, 03 Aug 2013 01:03:55 GMT

@rabbitearbandicoot wrote:
Is faith compatible with science or reality? - Of course it is!

Do you think you have to forego rational thinking to have faith? No.

Do you have faith based on reason? Yes.

If science contradicts scripture, which then do you accept? Show me where it does and I'll let you know.

Can you have faith and also accept science? e.g. Can you accept evolution if it goes against scripture?" Where does evolution go against scripture? Now, if you had asked does Abiogenesis go against scripture, that's a whole different question - but you know that already don't you?.

Can I just clarify. Are you saying, there's no incidence where the scripture contradicts our understand of estalished natural science?

Or are you just saying, people can ignore certain part of the bible or interpret it completely differently to what it reads? As it's interpretation that's the problem?

So those religious that don't accept evolution and think the universe is 6000yrs old because it goes against their interpretation of the scripture, are they idiots or do not have reason or logic?

Re: Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

i-need-a-martini — Sat, 03 Aug 2013 02:38:33 GMT

No.

I can't see how you can have faith (in God) which entails believing everything to be true that is in the doctrines for your particular religion and at the same time believing in science and all that entails - explanations for physical, natural, socialogical systems that shape the world as we know it today.

Re: Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

cat_mioux — Sat, 03 Aug 2013 02:44:17 GMT

What I like about Buddhism is that we are taught to question and test the Buddha's teachings for ourselves. I also find it fascinating that Buddhism's teachings on how the universe works is based on quantum physics.

Buddhism and science have increasingly been discussed as compatible, and Buddhism has entered into the science and religion dialogue.[1] The case is made that the philosophic and psychological teachings within Buddhism share commonalities with modern scientific and philosophic thought. For example, Buddhism encourages the impartial investigation of Nature (an activity referred to as Dhamma-Vicaya in the Pali Canon) — the principal object of study being oneself. Some popular conceptions of Buddhism connect it to discourse regarding evolution, quantum theory, and cosmology, though most scientists see a separation between the religious and metaphysical statements of Buddhism and the methodology of science.[citation needed]

Buddhism has been described by some as rational and non-dogmatic, and there is evidence that this has been the case from the earliest period of its history,[2] though some have suggested this aspect is given greater emphasis in modern times and is in part a reinterpretation.[3] Not all forms of Buddhism eschew dogmatism, remain neutral on the subject of the supernatural, or are open to scientific discoveries. Buddhism is a varied tradition and aspects include fundamentalism,[4] devotional traditions,[5] supplication to local spirits, and various superstitions.[6] Nevertheless, certain commonalities have been cited between scientific investigation and Buddhist thought. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama, in a speech at the meeting of the Society for Neuroscience, listed a "suspicion of absolutes" and a reliance on causality and empiricism as common philosophical principles shared between Buddhism and science.[7]

Re: Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

lakeland27 — Sat, 03 Aug 2013 02:49:49 GMT

@i-need-a-martini wrote:
No.

I can't see how you can have faith (in God) which entails believing everything to be true that is in the doctrines for your particular religion and at the same time believing in science and all that entails - explanations for physical, natural, socialogical systems that shape the world as we know it today.

but that's exactly what happened. people of faith were the scientists .. in Christendom and in Islam. did some of these monks etc hold on to the faith ? they did .. this is what the schism is between fundamentalism ('the word' is sacred etc and must be literally true' which the bible itself discourages.. legalism) and the more traditional view that it isn't a literal work but a guide or series of lessons.

Re: Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

lakeland27 — Sat, 03 Aug 2013 02:54:58 GMT

@**freethinker_bob** wrote:
@lakeland27 wrote:
Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

Why yes, i believe it is. and that isn't personal experience, more observation. but there is evidence of what i'm saying too.. think monastery. monks.. science astronomy medicine and military ideas (as well as some good liquor and cheese) poured out of these places between inquisitions and crusades. so there is or have been places where the two can co-exist.. today we have the salvation army employing largely secular staff (qualified) so, there you have a meeting of faith and reason i'd say.

You're missing the point. The question is not can a person of faith be reasonable or be logical in other areas of their life. Ofcourse they can. But do a person of faith have to throw reason and logic out the door to maintain their religious beliefs. e.g. Can a religious person truly believe a cracker literally turns into the body of a 1st century Jew after saying some latin words over it and still call their reason logical or is faith not compatible with reason.

i think you'll find there are many who do not adhere to the expectation of signs and wonders. and they don't care about details .

Re: Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

i-need-a-martini — Sat, 03 Aug 2013 02:56:09 GMT

I disagree LL.

Whilst both (theologian and scientist) may start with a theory for why something exists, a scientist searches for the proof. A theologist ignores the proof when it is presented.

Re: Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

lakeland27 — Sat, 03 Aug 2013 03:06:59 GMT

@i-need-a-martini wrote:
I disagree LL.

Whilst both (theologian and scientist) may start with a theory for why something exists, a scientist searches for the proof. A theologist ignores the proof when it is presented.

yes but i'm not comparing theologians to scientists, i'm saying they once could work out of the same Monastery without conflict. they were able to wear both hats .. its only the revival in fundamentalism (in any church ) that's created the divide.

Re: Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

*crikey*mate* — Sat, 03 Aug 2013 03:12:54 GMT

@i-need-a-martini wrote:
I disagree LL.

Whilst both (theologian and scientist) may start with a theory for why something exists, a scientist searches for the proof. A theologist ignores the proof when it is presented.

Do they?

And who determines that what a Scientist claims to be proof is in fact correct?

Proof is subjective depending on the technology available at the time, current definitions and man's interpretation of the results.

Anyone remember that place called Pluto?

Re: Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

izabsmiling — Sat, 03 Aug 2013 03:30:25 GMT

Theistic evolutionism acknowledges both God and Science .

Re: Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

i-need-a-martini — Sat, 03 Aug 2013 03:49:51 GMT

@crikey*mate wrote:
@i-need-a-martini wrote:
I disagree LL.

Whilst both (theologian and scientist) may start with a theory for why something exists, a scientist searches for the proof. A theologist ignores the proof when it is presented.
Do they?

And who determines that what a Scientist claims to be proof is in fact correct?

Proof is subjective depending on the technology available at the time, current definitions and man's interpretation of the results.

Anyone remember that place called Pluto?

But isn't that last line a good example? Scientists continued to search for proof and the truth and they found it.

Re: Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

i-need-a-martini — Sat, 03 Aug 2013 03:51:57 GMT

@lakeland27 wrote:
@i-need-a-martini wrote:
I disagree LL.

Whilst both (theologian and scientist) may start with a theory for why something exists, a scientist searches for the proof. A theologist ignores the proof when it is presented.
yes but i'm not comparing theologians to scientists, i'm saying they once could work out of the same Monastery without conflict. they were able to wear both hats .. its only the revival in fundamentalism (in any church ) that's created the divide.

Sure. And I agree.

Should point out that it used to be considered appropriate for a barber to be a dentist too. Until they realised they had a different persepctive on the job at hand.

Re: Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

polksaladallie — Sat, 03 Aug 2013 03:58:09 GMT

@**freethinker_bob** wrote:

Do you have faith based on reason?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZaOKWi7tus

This is my reason. The only person who could convert me.

Re: Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

izabsmiling — Sat, 03 Aug 2013 04:07:54 GMT

@i-need-a-martini wrote:
I disagree LL.

Whilst both (theologian and scientist) may start with a theory for why something exists, a scientist searches for the proof. A theologist ignores the proof when it is presented.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

scientist seek to either prove or disprove their theory .

Possibilianism

by BIG THINK EDITORS

THE BIG IDEA FOR SATURDAY, APRIL 13, 2013

"I do not believe that science can disprove the existence of God; I think that is impossible. And if it is impossible, is not a belief in science and in a God -- an ordinary God of religion -- a consistent possibility?" Thus spoke Richard Feynman, in agreement with other notable scientific minds, including Carl Sagan and Albert Einstein.

In other words, if we cannot conclude that God exists, but we also cannot conclude that God does not. There are indeed multiple possibilities of what happens to consciousness when we die. That is the idea of possibilianism, an idea recently popularized by David Eagleman. We may go to heaven or we all may just be sims. Neither of these possibilities can be proven or disproven, so we cannot discount them 100 percent.

Re: Is Faith Compatible with Reason?

rabbitearbandicoot — Sat, 03 Aug 2013 07:39:22 GMT

Can I just clarify. Are you saying, there's no incidence where the scripture contradicts our understand of estalished natural science?

I'm asking you where scripture contradicts science?

Or are you just saying, people can ignore certain part of the bible or interpret it completely differently to what it reads? As it's interpretation that's the problem? see below.

So those religious that don't accept evolution and think the universe is 6000yrs old because it goes against their interpretation of the scripture, are they idiots or do not have reason or logic? They are not idiots - but they confuse the word 'day' as it's written in Genesis - 'day' in that context means period - most Bible scholars agree. What does it mean when someone says "in my day we didn't have all this crime/television/insert your own wording here. Are they talking about one specific 24-hour period during their life? No!