topic Re: Jacqui Lambie Thread in Community Spirit

Jacqui Lambie Thread

nero_bolt — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 22:53:24 GMT

Jacqui Lambie's Indigenous heritage claims surprise members of Tasmania's Aboriginal community

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-08/anger-over-jacqui-lambies-aboriginal-claims/5728622

Palmer United Party Senator Jacqui Lambie has landed herself in another dispute, this time with leaders of Tasmania's Aboriginal community.

The outspoken Senate newcomer claimed in her maiden speech last week that she was related to, if not descended from, a prominent Aboriginal resistance leader of north-eastern Tasmania.

"I acknowledge and pay my respects to Australia's Aboriginal traditional owners. I share their blood, culture and history through my mother's, Sue Lambie's, family," Senator Lambie said.

"We trace our history over six generations to celebrated Aboriginal chieftain of the Tasmania east coast, Mannalargenna."

Clyde Mansell, a community elder and acknowledged direct descendant of Mannalargenna, said it was news to him.

"That's my family. And she's not part of it," he said.

Mr Mansell, who is also chair of the Aboriginal Land Council of Tasmania, branded Senator Lambie's claims as "absolutely outrageous and scandalous".

"They're totally unfounded," he said.

"There's no evidence that I'm aware of that would justify Jacqui Lambie standing up in the Australian Parliament and making those claims. She didn't have the right.

"There was no reference back to the community about whom she's making this ridiculous claim.

"She had no idea what she was saying and couldn't even pronounce the name [Mannalargenna] properly."

Conflicting family trees

Senator Lambie provided some documents to Australian Story on Monday afternoon.

A family tree indicates a lineage from one of Mannalargenna's granddaughters, Margaret (also known as Mary), who was the offspring of Mannalargenna's daughter Worretermoeteyenner and a sealer, George Briggs, who had abducted her.

But that is where things become complicated.

This key ancestor in Senator Lambie's family tree, Margaret Briggs, is said to have married a Thomas Hite, with the rest of the family emanating from them.

But there is no trace of a Thomas Hite in the Tasmanian archival records.

And the Tasmanian Pioneer Index shows that Margaret Briggs died in 1839, aged 22, with no mention of a spouse or offspring, all of which is consistent with a detailed Briggs family genealogy.

Senator Lambie's family tree, however, says that Margaret Briggs married a Thomas Hite and had two children, one a daughter, Ann, who married William Aylett, and that this is the branch of the family from which the Lambies are descended.

The documents provided to Australian Story include the findings of a 2002 Administrative Appeals Tribunal dispute relating to rights to participate in an ATSIC election.

Claimants gave evidence that a pardoned convict, Samuel Hite, married another former convict, Mary Ann Pendrill, and that Samuel had a brother, Thomas Hite, who came to Tasmania as a sealer-sailor and took up with an Aboriginal woman.

This pairing is said to have resulted in a daughter, Ann, born in 1837, who was taken in by Samuel Hite and his wife Mary Ann and recorded as their own.

Ann went on to marry a William Aylett, and evidence was given that both are buried in the Jenner Cemetery at Wynyard, with Ann in the Aboriginal section and William in the white section.

On this basis, the tribunal found that the claimants were "the descendants of Thomas Hite and an Aboriginal woman".

However, there remains the question of Ann Hite's parentage and any evidence to link her to Margaret Briggs or her grandfather Mannalargenna

And there remains mystery around Thomas Hite, with the tribunal acknowledging there was no record for him in the Tasmanian archives and there being no mention of him as a sealer in Brian Plomley's authoritative book covering the era, Friendly Mission.

Heather Sculthorpe, chief executive of the Tasmanian Aboriginal Centre, said Senator Lambie's maiden speech was the first time she too had heard any suggestion that the senator had an Indigenous heritage.

"She's not known in the Aboriginal community and that statement was a shock to us," Ms Sculthorpe said.

"These days if people don't know who their tribal ancestors are, they tend to claim Mannalargenna like they used to claim Truganini as their ancestor."

Mr Mansell is calling on Senator Lambie to produce evidence of her family tree so the validity of her claim can be tested.

"She should present that evidence of her so-called Aboriginality to us because we are the relatives," he said.

More here http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-08/anger-over-jacqui-lambies-aboriginal-claims/5728622

Re: Jacqui Lambie Thread

***super_nova*** — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 00:21:55 GMT

DNA test could put some light on this.

By the way in the 19th century many women had more than 2 children by the time they were 22. And records in this part of the world were not all that well kept and people moved around. Even in Europe where the population remained largely in one spot, and the records were kept, there were mistakes and omissions. One of my ancestors on my mother's side, son of one of the wealthiest families in town, living there for generations, is not registered in the book of births. And my paternal grandmother's eldest brother, who inherited the estate, and married, and had children, whose descendant still own the property, has on his birth record a note that he died at the age of 8 months.

Re: Jacqui Lambie Thread

kilroy_is_here — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 05:48:15 GMT

If her brains were dynamite she would not have enough to blow her nose

Re: Jacqui Lambie Thread

azureline** — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 08:01:53 GMT

that's a bit harsh...................

I think it all looks too complicated for me to follow..............

I have family trees where there are multiple children with the same names.

It looks like the men took a second wife and named the children of the second family the same as the first.

Re: Jacqui Lambie Thread

lyndal1838 — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 20:24:36 GMT

Az, I found when doing my family tree that if a baby died at birth or very young the name was reused for later children.

I guess with large families it was easier than thinking up new names.

Re: Jacqui Lambie Thread

love*today — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 20:42:36 GMT

Could this be seen as racism?

Re: Jacqui Lambie Thread

i-need-a-martini — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 22:20:47 GMT

Lambie did not discuss her lineage on Australian Story. They were filming her maiden speech where she acknowledged the indigenous people at the start of her speech just like every one else does.

She added the sentence of her own lineage as a one sentence statement after her acknowledgement and before she got into the speech proper. The ABC has documentation for from ATSIC that independently confirms what she believes to be true of her lineage.

The fact that she has failed to mention it before is neither here nor there given that this is the first public speech where the opportunity even arises.

Either way, the program gave an excellent insight into a woman that has done extremely well for herself against all odds. Whether you agree or disagree with her views, she has made it into politics despite a welfare upbringing, despite her past drug/alc abuse problems, despite having to care for her kids on her own, despite being in pain from a previous horrific accident etc so I would say that she is a hell of a lot smarter than many give her credit for.

I can't agree with much of her politics but I will give her credit for working hard and honsestly for Tasmanians.

Re: Jacqui Lambie Thread

punch*drunk — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 23:01:10 GMT

Problem is its from back in the time before lots of records were kept so its pretty hard to say for sure. If there is seperate parts of the cemetery and they are buried seperately that would be pretty good evidence I guess, but going purely by records, the evidence suggests that Ann was the daughter of Samuel and Mary Ann. I cant find any actual evidence of Thomas even existing.

Re: Jacqui Lambie Thread

karliandjacko — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 23:19:17 GMT

@punch*drunk wrote:
Problem is its from back in the time before lots of records were kept so its pretty hard to say for sure. If there is seperate parts of the cemetery and they are buried seperately that would be pretty good evidence I guess, but going purely by records, the evidence suggests that Ann was the daughter of Samuel and Mary Ann. I cant find any actual evidence of Thomas even existing.

There are a lot of missing records or records that don't match.

People took in aboriginal people and made up stories to pass them off as non aboriginal to protect them from those who wanted to hunt them down and remove them from the island.

Re: Jacqui Lambie Thread

punch*drunk — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 23:52:38 GMT

There are a lot of missing records or records that don't match.

I realise that, but the available records point to Ann being the child of Samuel and Mary Ann. My mum used to tell us we were related to Burke from Burke and Wills, but I cant find a connection and unless I do its not fact its a rumour. I also know someone who swears to be related to Ned Kelly and Joe Byrne apparently he even has a family tree somewhere proving it, but having done his family tree myself I know that he's not even remotely connected to either. Everybody wants to be connected to someone famous.

If Ann is buried in an indiginous section then presumably she is indiginous, I dont think there would be a provable link to the family she is claiming though, and neither do they.

Re: Jacqui Lambie Thread

lightningdance — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 00:12:08 GMT

@kilroy_is_here wrote:
If her brains were dynamite she would not have enough to blow her nose

Has anybody done a toe count on her.......lol I believe there's a petition going round Tassie.

Re: Jacqui Lambie Thread

karliandjacko — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 00:32:34 GMT

@punch*drunk wrote:
There are a lot of missing records or records that don't match.

I realise that, but the available records point to Ann being the child of Samuel and Mary Ann. My mum used to tell us we were related to Burke from Burke and Wills, but I cant find a connection and unless I do its not fact its a rumour. I also know someone who swears to be related to Ned Kelly and Joe Byrne apparently he even has a family tree somewhere proving it, but having done his family tree myself I know that he's not even remotely connected to either. Everybody wants to be connected to someone famous.

If Ann is buried in an indiginous section then presumably she is indiginous, I dont think there would be a provable link to the family she is claiming though, and neither do they.

It was a bit different in tassie as conscious efforts were made to remove all the indigenous people from the land. It was the policy of the day that not everyone agreed with, hence some people covered for some and created stories about an alternative heritage. Other births were not recorded accurately, after rapes and murders.

There are people recorded as coming on ships that didn't stop where they are said to have got on the ship and records of people being in Tassie before the ship they supposedly arrived on arriving in Tassie. Mr Mansell goes to war with almost everyone who claims to be of aboriginal descent unless he has known them all his life.

Re: Jacqui Lambie Thread

punch*drunk — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 00:44:39 GMT

Mr Mansell goes to war with almost everyone who claims to be of aboriginal descent unless he has known them all his life.

That doesnt make him wrong and her right. I've done enough family history to know about the reliability of records and, as I said earlier, its not even an era where records were required to be kept. There are a few things about the story that dont add up, but like I said, if Ann is really buried in an indigenous section than quite possibly Lambie is of Aboriginal descent. Whether its from this actual family is debateable. I'm not saying she's not, but I understand why the known descendants expect some proof of the matter. A family story isnt really good enough IMO.

Re: Jacqui Lambie Thread

azureline** — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 01:33:44 GMT

I am not sure why it matters to anyone except Lambie.

Re: Jacqui Lambie Thread

punch*drunk — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 01:46:11 GMT

I think it matters to the family she is laying claim to az.

I just like a family history challenge, has been interesting looking at this one. My husbands family are connected to the Briggs family, one of them married a daughter of Dolly Dalrymple Briggs. I dont usually research siblings of ancestors much so although I knew of the link, I hadnt really looked any closer, she looks like she was a pretty amazing woman against all odds.

Re: Jacqui Lambie Thread

***super_nova*** — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 02:18:29 GMT

@azureline** wrote:

I have family trees where there are multiple children with the same names.
It looks like the men took a second wife and named the children of the second family the same as the first.

I think you may find that the first child with that name died in infancy and they re-used the name.

Re: Jacqui Lambie Thread

***super_nova*** — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 02:26:46 GMT

@punch*drunk wrote:
I think it matters to the family she is laying claim to az.

But she is not really laying any claims on anything. She did not say she wants to be regarded as aboriginal. She just mentioned she has a connection.

Re: Jacqui Lambie Thread

punch*drunk — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 02:37:38 GMT

@***super_nova*** wrote:
@punch*drunk wrote:
I think it matters to the family she is laying claim to az.

But she is not really laying any claims on anything. She did not say she wants to be regarded as aboriginal. She just mentioned she has a connection.

She's claiming to be a descendant of Mannalargenna, with no apparent proof. His known ancestors disagree. Being a family history buff I also object to people stealing my ancestors for their own and mine arent anyone special.

Re: Jacqui Lambie Thread

azureline** — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 02:44:58 GMT

@***super_nova*** wrote:
@azureline** wrote:

I have family trees where there are multiple children with the same names.
It looks like the men took a second wife and named the children of the second family the same as the first.

I think you may find that the first child with that name died in infancy and they re-used the name.

yes, there are some instances of that but also remarriage and subsequent children.

Re: Jacqui Lambie Thread

punch*drunk — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 02:53:33 GMT

I only have one family that used the same name twice without the first having passed away. They named both their eldest and youngest John, I kept double checking cos it didnt make any sense, but its correct. I assumed maybe the first was more commonly known by his middle name. Would get kind of confusing having 2 kids in the same house with the same name.