Bondi Junction massacre
Summary: La discusión sobre la masacre de Bondi Junction se desarrolla con contribuciones de múltiples participantes, incluyendo nicnacs_4u, springyzone, y *sons_n_daughters*. Aunque los detalles específicos de la masacre no se mencionan, parece ser un tema que tiene varios hilos de discusión y múltiples respuestas de seguimiento entre los participantes. La conversación es extensa, con respuestas encadenadas de varios miembros, mostrando un interés continuo en el tema. Algunos comentarios son seguidos por respuestas múltiples, sugiriendo puntos de discusión o aclaraciones sobre detalles no especificados en el contenido original.
Approx 4.30pm a lone male went and stabbed 6 people to death at Bondi Junction shopping mall yesterday:-(
Another day to remember but for all the wrong reasons. What would make someone do this?
springyzone
·2 years agoA brother in law of mine worked in the prison system for decades, sometimes in the high security sectors.
He has always stated that some of the most dangerous men there could turn on a dime, so to speak. Lovely and smiling one second, the next violently aggressive over the most trifling thing.
These men often/usually had diagnosed mental conditions.
One of BIL's comments was that if you knew what was walking around free on the streets, you'd be afraid.
I've known several people with mental health issues, and some of them not treated properly in the medical system, in my opinion, but none of these people were aggressive or a danger to others.
But not all mental illnesses are equal and schizophrenia is a serious one.
While most individuals with psychotic disorders will never commit violence, the risk of violence committed by people witht schizophrenia is up to 4 to 6 times higher than the general population.
Mixing it with illegal drugs increases the risk factor. From what I have read, those with mental illness are also more at risk of being victims of violence. What it comes down to is these people need lifelong support systems and lifelong treatment.
Whenever something bad happens, I guess everyone looks around for someone or something to blame. And yes, our health systems could do with more funding and so on, but the blame really comes down to one person.
nicnacs_4u
OP2 years agoChrista Gail Pike was one who suffered schizophrenia and at 18 she was found guilty of a shocking murder and is still waiting on death row now. The murder was in 1996 and most of the time in jail and in court she laughed and smiled like nothing had happened!
domino-710
·2 years agoNowhere does it state she suffered schizophrenia - severe metal illness - Bipolar disorder & PTS.
But sometimes the symptoms can overlap.
nicnacs_4u
OP2 years agoAs Dom pointed out my mistake in saying she suffered schizophrenia🤐
domino-710
·2 years agoInteresting story Nics - what a sad life she had - no wonder she was totally messed up.
Also interesting is the sentence if given today would be far different.
countessalmirena
·2 years agoIn this case, it’s reported that the murderer had been under the care of a treating physician but that he had moved away and had not registered with a new GP. It’s stated that his treating doctor was weaning him off his medication and it is presumed (but not proven) that he’d abruptly stopped taking any prescribed medicine upon moving to Sydney. I am presuming that he was no longer seeking professional help in managing his schizophrenia.
It is generally acknowledged (and studies support) that there is a correlation between schizophrenia and violent behaviour, but not that “homicide risk is intrinsic to clinical manifestations of schizophrenia”. An important meta-analysis found a heterogeneity in rates of homicide by people with schizophrenia and this suggests that risk factors for homicide in the general community also affect those suffering from schizophrenia.
To be clear, my position is that it’s not only and solely schizophrenia which determined the murderer’s attack. I consider that there were other factors involved. The very fact that he targeted women is suggestive.
not_for_sale
·2 years agoYour quotes are interesting, but the offender was not included in any of the studies or text books you referred to. The official review will most certainly try to determine if he targeted women because of psychotic thinking. This incident was tragic and the mental health system must try to identify measures to better manage risk when such people are living in the community.
countessalmirena
·2 years agoYes, I’m sticking my neck out with this, but I stand ready to be corrected. I simply do not consider that it’s only his schizophrenia which caused him to kill. At the very least, the fact that he was taking crystal meth (allegedly) would have played a part - in my opinion.
If being schizophrenic were the sole cause in a murder of this sort (without any contributing factor), we’d really have a dilemma.
not_for_sale
·2 years agoDo you mean treated, or untreated schizophrenia?
countessalmirena
·2 years agoKiller / murderer is a title of such darkness and wickedness… This murderer (mentally ill though he clearly was) doesn’t need to be classed a terrorist or his actions classed as terrorism in order for him and his actions to be condemned unequivocally as evil and representing the the dregs of human behaviour. “Terrorist” isn’t a “worse than a murderer” label; it’s a specific class of murderer and in this case it doesn’t appear to apply.
Yea, the murderer did return to his parent’s home when imminently homeless, and wanted to bring his collection of knives to which his father said no. That is a flag… along with other things which he posted on social media.
Yes, the scoping out of the centre (and other centres) is indicative of planning.
The targeting of women - appalling. In my view, he had rage and hatred in his heart motivating him.
Apparently he was being weaned off his medication - initially under the supervision of his doctor. It seems he was no longer seeing a doctor when he moved to Sydney and I am presuming that he went abruptly off his medication at that time. The evidence available at the moment supports my presumption. It is hard to know what drove his treating doctor to consider the weaning off medication to be a satisfactory management of his mental health … but it is at least possible that the murderer resented having to take his medication and badgered his doctor into trying to wean off his prescription gradually to see how it went.
I think his parents are overwhelmed and distraught and don’t know what to say - especially his mother who appears to me to have trouble articulating her emotions.
In the end, this murderer didn’t kill - couldn’t have killed - due to suffering from schizophrenia. It didn’t happen in isolation. It was planned and targeted and bloody; there was far more behind it than his having schizophrenia.
All prayers and thoughts for the people whose loved ones have suffered such a senseless and undeserved loss.
not_for_sale
·2 years ago"In the end, this murderer didn’t kill - couldn’t have killed - due to suffering from schizophrenia. It didn’t happen in isolation. It was planned and targeted and bloody; there was far more behind it than his having schizophrenia".
That's a very bold conclusion. It will be interesting to see if the forensic psychiatrists who analyse and review this case agree with you.
countessalmirena
·2 years agoI don’t underestimate the need for better mental health resources and supports.
Where I take issue is
• the apparent shrugging off over the alleged use of methamphetamines and psychedelic drugs, and
• the focus away from actual use of a knife in multiple attacks allegedly intended to murder strangers (and actually resulting in multiple deaths).
Chameleon, my sense of you is that you’re compassionate and that you have experience of people suffering with mental health. I think you’ve seen some things from that perspective…
I cannot override the right of innocent people (who have no interaction or history with the man who killed them) to be safe from such attack, not to be murdered, over the rights of the man in question.
The man had apparently made life choices that could be anticipated to increase the risk of violent behaviour. There is no mitigation for making those choices.
That said, I am all in favour of more research into preventing and/or treating mental illnesses, and how to manage the balance between free will and the inherent dangers associated with drug use (and what sort of things society can do when a mentally ill person won’t comply with prescribed treatment - if that is what happened).
The public focus at the moment is on the horror of the attacks and the unimaginable grief of the families and loved ones of who have been killed. That is where it needs to be; later there should be discussions on how to prevent or reduce such things, which will obviously include dealing with mental illness. I agree that not enough is being done and not enough money is being allocated - but that’s true for health and medical research in general, despite the devastation of COVID-19.
sandypebbles
·2 years agoAbsolutely
*This* terrorist was not a victim
He is not a 'poster boy' for mental illness
There is no possible justification or excuse of any kind for his actions
Ever
chameleon54
·2 years agoI am not in any way diminishing the actions of the man with the knife. My posts are merely aimed at presenting a different perspective on the opening post to the reactive, uninformed comments a few have chosen to make on this thread.
" Approx 4.30pm a lone male went and stabbed 6 people to death at Bondi Junction shopping mall yesterday:-(
Another day to remember but for all the wrong reasons. What would make someone do this? "
Perfectly reasonable I would have thought, but as always there are some who have to belittle and denigrate anyone who takes a more lateral / informed view to the common black and white position of the mob.
I will leave you to it.
domino-710
·2 years agoSo - we are now the ' mob '.
In this instance there is no ' lateral/informed view '.
And it is totally - black & white - wrong on all levels.
Not known to the police - so no radar there.
No excuses - not even one.
Terrorist.
cam-2793
·2 years agoSo what ideology was he motivated by?
There is a difference between terrorism and mass murder.
Terrorism is spurred by a specific ideology or political motivation, while mass murder is a more indiscriminate act of violence against an innocent population.
Mass murderer , yes! Terrorist? Without links to a known organisation or a copy of his manifesto, not demonstrated and cannot be assumed!!
domino-710
·2 years agoNo where was ' terrorism ' mentioned.
This man terrorised many :
springyzone
·2 years agoI could be off target here but to me, he caused other people to feel terror but he was not a terrorist in the accepted short hand version of what people understand it to mean these days.
When they say-was it a terrorist attack? they usually mean was it associated with a known group or idealogy or political stance.
In that sense, this man does not seem to have been part of any terrorist group. Which I guess is the good news.
sandypebbles
·2 years agoHis actions were that of a terrorist and in my opinion that is exactly what he is
Just because he may not be of the usual 'bent' that society associates with a terrorist (especially since 9/11) it is a title he deserves
Goes for any mass murderer on a rampage , in my opinion
domino-710
·2 years agoSpringy - I don't give a damn about the current terminology of ' terrorist ' - I'm interrested in the ' WORD '.
This person terrified people - that to me is a terrorist.
Forget the modern - have to be a gang member - a religious fanatic - a political activist - this guy ' terrorised '.
We are not in a court of law - the term can be use to describe actions.
He was a terrorist - and - a killer.
countessalmirena
·2 years agoOverwhelmingly awful - I felt especially horrified at the stabbing of the baby, and the news that her mother, also stabbed, has died in hospital.
If this murderer was using drugs in addition to having a mental condition, to me that is an aggravation, not an excuse. At this stage we don’t know… so like everyone else I’m sad, appalled, and wanting to know why this man did what he did.
Hats off to the very brave police officer who acted as necessary to prevent further attacks.
Everyone who has lost a loved one in this senseless brutal attack - we can only imagine the hell of their shock and first sharp grief as they try to process what’s occurred.
A better solution is needed. Anyone whose mental condition is so unstable - stop them categorically from use of illicit drugs; stop giving free passes; treat them adequately; long-term, we need strategies to prevent such issues where they can be prevented (foetal alcohol syndrome is preventable, for instance…)
All the rhetoric in the world, the political phrases, the granting of bail on mental health grounds without any addressing of the real danger and need for immediate protections - all of the blah… how powerless it is.
twyngwyn
·2 years agoBondi Junction stabbing: Joel Cauchi’s history revealed (theage.com.au)
chameleon54
·2 years ago" and wanting to know why this man did what he did. "
While we will never know why this man did what he did, our completely failed mental health and social services systems ( due to lack of financial resources ) is undoubtably a contributing factor.
* People with psychiatric conditions are rarely diagnosed until adulthood, due to changes in the brain of growing adolescents presenting different symptoms at different ages.
* There is also a reluctance to " brand " a child or adolescent with a significant, permanent psychiatric condition as a youth. This means there is very little help or education available, designed to treat the specific condition until the person reaches adulthood. By then the person is already badly damaged by their own condition and rejection from society meaning they often lose contact with the medical system and may not ever receive a diagnosis or treatment for their condition.
* Many people with psychiatric conditions are rejected by their families, schools and society due to extreme behaviours and end up without the normal basic support mechanisms that most people take for granted. We know this man was estranged from his family.
* People with psychiatric conditions are " known to police " . This means they are regularly targetted for " street stops " or searches and questioning when they are simply walking to the shops or bus stop. If they drive they will be " flagged in the system, stopped and searched, often resulting in their cars ( which they sometimes live in ) being defected etc.
" This can escalate if the person becomes agitated resulting in arrest, the start of criminal records ( resisting arrest ) court appearances and unfortunately all to often " use of excessive force " .............code for police bashings while being arrested or later in the cells. .......Yes it happens regularly to these people .......they dont have the resources to challenge police brutality.
* They also lack the skills to manage their personal affairs and regularly live in unstable, unsafe accommodation or experience homelessness. This also results in minor crime such as shop lifting food etc. Again ingraining interactions with police.
* Due to rejection by mainstream society mentally unstable people are only socially accepted by other very vulnerable / damaged people. These associations entrench issues such as communal alcohol and drug use, violence etc.
* Due to their vulnerable existence and rejection from society people with psychiatric conditions often have to be extremely reactive and aggressive just to survive. Its a very dangerous world they live in. This is particularly so for young woman who regularly face abuse. They often need to be more volatile, aggressive and violent than young men, just to stay safe.
* There appears to be much less research directed towards psychiatric medication and medical intervention than other conditions. The medical system is still using drugs developed in the 1960's and 70's and electric shop therapy to treat common conditions. These often have major side effects meaning vulnerable people simply dont use them, self medicating with illegal street drugs which often have sedative effects such as marijuana.
*sons_n_daughters*
·2 years agoThe Yanks are out in force over this. "Maybe you need to tighten your gun laws a bit more to prevent this". "Glad you have such tight gun laws. They really helped in this situation". It's because we have such strict gun laws that only 6 people died, and not 60 or 600, or even 6,000. With an automatic weapon, he could have wiped out half the shopping centre in the space of a few minutes.
Some reports in the news say people were saying he appeared to be heavily intoxicated with drugs, or something. Of course that's hearsay, but it would certainly make sense. Thankfully the maniac is dead. At least the families of the victims won't have to go through months of court battles, only for the maniac to get off because he has mental health issues, or was under the influence of drugs.
So many people yesterday showed the true Aussie spirit. Thinking of others before themselves. Instead of running for their lives, they tried so hard to help others, and ward off the crazy man. There were many heroes yesterday, including that amazing police woman.
R.I.P to those that lost their lives yesterday. This time yesterday, they didn't know that was to be their last day. So sad for those left behind. I hope the other injured make a full recovery and get any help needed to recover mentally.
springyzone
·2 years agoI was thinking the same thing. Obviously a lot of harm can be done with a knife, a bat, a chisel, a hammer, you name it.
But a gun is made for one purpose only, to kill effectively. And from a distance.
I can always recall an American on one of the forums saying the advantage of guns was members of the public had them and could shoot down a killer etc
Imagine the chaos if we had bullets ricocheting everywhere.
Knives can kill but guns can kill quicker. We are extremely lucky guns aren't as easy to come by.
*sons_n_daughters*
·2 years agoExcept, they don't. Reason being, the loonie has walked in with an automatic rifle and started shooting at anything that moved. They can easily mow down 20 people in under 5 seconds. The members of the public don't have time to get their gun out and try and kill the shooter. They are usually dead before getting the chance.
Of all the mass shootings in the US, how many do you hear of where the killer was taken out by a member of the public? Very few, if any. They are no safer than you or me. Yet, they think they feel safe by being able to carry. I've given up trying to argue with them. It's pointless. They are brainwashed, and nothing is going to change it.
sandypebbles
·2 years agoLike any addiction
Zero logic to their 'argument'
Disgusting such a large portion of the news last night was focused on this POS
Of course the 'mental illness' excuse which is used every single time someone does something . Always, always 'they were mentally ill'
Why then was this 'thing' allowed to move from QLD to NSW in the first place, if they were that 'mentally ill', drug addled, known to police, known obsession with guns and knives, why, why why were they permitted to move to another state
Mind you, they were 'with it' enough to avoid taken on people bigger than they were, to mostly target woman and a baby
Coward grub and nothing more
Does not deserve to have a name or the attention
Focus on the victims, first responders, hero bystanders, family and friends
That nobody piece of filth can rot in h**l
springyzone
·2 years agoMental illness is very real, but the way we deal with it is inadequate.
I am of the opinion that at this stage, we are unable to cure some severe forms of mental illness.
Apparently in some states and with some offenders, the offender has to go to a police station and take their prescribed drugs for the day in front of officers, because with appropriate medication, a lot of these people can lead better lives. But if you leave them to their own devices, some schizophrenics will believe there is nothing wrong with them and just stop any medication.
So you're right, this man should not have been free to wander, or at least he may have needed to be under closer supervision.
I think there are massive gaps in our treatment of the mentally ill. (maybe for our physically ill too).
And I read that this man was signed up at several agencies as a male escort! Doesn't that make your blood run cold, it is the stuff of horror films. What sort of vetting do these agencies do?
sandypebbles
·2 years agoYes, I know and understand it is real
But, every single time anyone attacks someone or goes on a criminal spree, it is always put down to 'mental illness'
Always
I do not believe for a second that mental illness is behind every single violent crime
Some people are just scum pure and simple
Of course, we can't say that, so they 'easy' thing to do is put the mentally ill label on their actions
sandypebbles
·2 years agoThe other thing on the news, they kept saying the attack was not terror related
That is exactly what 'it' was (he is not worthy of being called a 'man')
A terrorist
Just because he was not part of an organised terrorist group does not mean he was not a terrorist
springyzone
·2 years agoOh, I agree, mental illness is the new get out of jail free card.
Evil exists and you don't have to be mentally ill to be evil.
I also get very tired of the excuse of oh but he was on drugs at the time. Well, that's just another offence as far as I am concerned & should make the charges more serious. Not less.
Schizophrenia and drug taking is a big no-no. It makes people worse. That man would have known that. What's the bet though that he was also a drug taker?
I could lose the bet but I am suspicious.
chameleon54
·2 years ago" Apparently in some states and with some offenders, the offender has to go to a police station and take their prescribed drugs for the day in front of officers, because with appropriate medication, a lot of these people can lead better lives. "
Would these be the same police stations where they may have been bashed a few months ago ? Would the Police officers be the same ones who regularly stop them while they are walking to the bus or who defected their car ( which they live in ) last week ?
Yes many police officers are very understanding and respectful, but there is a significant proportion ( maybe 30% ) who are nearly as unstable as the people they are dealing with. They go into the force because they are bullies and want to dominate others. Who better to express these urges on than vulnerable mentally ill people who have no avenue of recourse. The normal person in the street never see's this side of our police force but it is there.
" because with appropriate medication, a lot of these people can lead better lives. "
As already mentioned psychiatric conditions and medications are not considered in the same way as breast cancer treatment or common conditions affecting many people in the community.
There is less government funding allocated to these conditions ( worldwide ) and so less research and development of appropriate medications. We are still regularly using medications such as Lithium which was released in the 1940's to treat common psychiatric conditions.
Most psychiatric medications have major side effects, often leaving recipients feeling like zombies and unable to function at even basic levels. This leads to people refusing to take them.
What are the police going to do ? Go out and search the streets for them, because they didnt turn up at the station to take their pill ? A much better solution which is sometimes used is to provide quality public housing for these people and have a specialist nurse attend their home each day to ensure medication is taken.........But it costs money and takes a bit of effort and there are no votes in it.
chameleon54
·2 years ago"So you're right, this man should not have been free to wander, or at least he may have needed to be under closer supervision. "
According to the media, the man had no history of violence, no criminal convictions of any sort, no history of domestic violence and no restraining orders ever placed against him. On what grounds should he have been forcibly detained in an institution and what institution should that be ?
We closed all of the " Mental Asylums " fourty years ago due to human rights concerns.
And how do you " closely supervise " someone who is homeless, transient and disconnected from all support services ? ( as experienced by the man with a knife )
It is worth reminding ourselves that as a society we have failed to provide anywhere near enough public / social housing and have restricted building practices with red tape to the extent that we have priced ourselves out of building new homes.
Invariably when housing agencies are confronted with a young woman with children or a senior aged homeless woman and a young, strong twenty something man with extreme mental illness, they will give the home to one of the woman every time. ( is one life more valuable than another ? )
This is one of the challenges people with mental illness face every day. They automatically go to the bottom of the queue for any services that are available and without family support, invariably end up homeless or in prison for taking ( illegal ) actions in order to survive.
springyzone
·2 years agoFrom what I have read, this man wasn't 'estranged' from his family, they were worried about him and had even contacted his bank to see if there had been transactions and if he was okay.
The estrangement was of the man's choosing and probably came about after he stopped his medication.
When he attacked people, he was off his medication.
I was also told (and not sure if it is fact or not) that the family had confiscated his knives some time back and he had reported them to police for theft.
My take on it is yes, mental health is not given the funding it deserves, but also that we need to take firmer steps to make sure people with severe problems are in fact on their medication.
And if that means making them report weekly somewhere for a blood test or whatever, so be it. I don't see that it has to be at a police station, it could be at a medical clinic.
I suspect that had this man been on his proper medication, this whole scenario may not have unfolded.
If the knife statement is accurate, if this man had a fascination with knives and if this came to the attention of the police, it's massive red flag. The man should have been immediately screened medically. With or without his permission.
I don't believe we can ever get on top of each and every mental episode. Impossible.
All we can hope for is to do better.
springyzone
·2 years agoSevere mental halth issues, I would guess.
From what I am reading, the man was 'known to police.'
So this didn't come entirely out of the blue. Obviously no one expected him to do what he did, but he was on the radar.
Sometimes I think we have too many seriously mentally ill people walking around free.
At least the police woman who shot him hasn't had to face investigations etc
A few years back, I was on another board when a police officer shot a man/teen with a machete. Someone who had run through a shopping centre threatening people then ran at a police officer with it when confronted. And half the people on the board were saying the police officer should be sacked, no need to shoot anyone who 'only' had a knife, unfair etc