Item refunded due to non delivery but has been returned to me.
I sold a CD to a buyer in Norway on 11th March and shipped it the same day. On 8th April he complained that it hadn't arrived and PayPal gave him a complete refund. I have checked and ascertained that I posted it to the address he gave me. The returned item bears a sticker stating that it has been returned unclaimed. The CD was only $13 however the postage was $32, meaning that whilst I have the CD I have lost $32 in postage. Can Discogs do anything about this or is it a matter for PayPal?
66 comments
eol-products
·3 years agoIn the past return international postage came with a return postage charge to be able to claim the item at the post office. So the OP was lucky they had not been charged this like they used to in the past. This is one reason I tick dispose of the item if it can't be delivered on items of low value.
Also most regular sellers would get a 25% discount on international postage so the loss would be more bearable.
siddieswans
·3 years agoI always tick Return by Cheapest Option or whatever it says. Only a smallish sample - perhaps 6 times over the years but I have never been charged for return postage. Mind you sometimes it has taken QUITE a long time to be returned. 3 times I had no idea the parcel had not been delivered until it was returned to me. One of these 3 buyers was no longer an eBay member. One never replied to my several emails saying the parcel had been returned, and as they had never opened a case for non-delivery, I did not feel the need to refund them, though of course I would have done so if required. The third buyer said "oh yes, he had meant to pick it up, but forgot; he still wanted the item, so he would be happy to pay for postage again if I could resend it." My take is, if you get the item back after you have refunded for non-delivery, at least you have salvaged something from the affair. Probably would depend on value of items you sell - I usually don't list anything for International sale that posts at over a kilo, and I have a huge list of places I don't sell to.
springyzone
·3 years agoThe person or entity with the original $32 in their little hot hands is Australia Post.
There is no such thing as free postage.
Therefore someone has to be out of pocket for the $32 and as the buyer has been fully refunded, that person in this case is the seller.
I think it is just one of the risks of selling on ebay and at least the OP got his item back. Some poor sellers end up out of pocket for both postage and item.
Personally, if I were still selling, I'd be inclined to put this one down to experience and to try to cut down my risks, maybe by limiting the sales of my cheaper items to Australia only or something like that. Where the postage cost is way out of proportion to the item cost, I'd classify that as higher risk.
*sons_n_daughters*
·3 years agoWhen the transaction took place, the buyer was out the $32 for postage. The seller then used that $32 to pay for the postage, meaning the buyer had paid the postage. Then the buyer was refunded the $32 for the postage. The postage had still been paid, because the item was sent. As the buyer was refunded the $32, they no longer paid for the postage, yet the postage has remained paid. It's the seller who is now out of pocket, because the buyer has now no longer paid for the postage.
huatao1975
·3 years agoDuring refunds we always lose on postage. Since we refund the postage to buyers but Aus Post will not refund the same to us. I thought this is just common sense.
sugar249
·3 years agoThere appears to be 20 people who think the seller is out of pocket, and only one person who seems to think the seller is not out of pocket.
To me it is obvious who is mathematically and logically struggling.
davewil1964
·3 years agoYep. The twenty mathematically challenged, despite evidence.
gutterpunkz05
·3 years agoDave, break out the rods, to the value of 32, any combination you wish to choose.
Now lay them on the table and rearrange them as many times as you like.
Now let me know when and how , you manage to create two identical bundles of 32 units simultaneously. It is a mathematical impossibility , as per this thread, AP and the buyer can not both be in possession of $32 if the only source of funds was the buyers original $32.
michael_cullis
·3 years agoDave, I do not wish to appear sarcastic but I will explain my reasoning in a way that a child could follow.
For the sake of example, let's assume that before the transaction my account contains $132.
1. Pre-transaction account balance: $132
2. Buyer pays me $32: $132+$32=$164
3. I buy postage label: $164-$32=$132
4. I refund buyer: $132-$32=$100
The post-transaction balance is $100, $32 less than it was at the begining.
The way I see it you have three option:
1. Show me the point at which my calculations become incorrect
2. Admit you were wrong
3. Do not respond, which I will take as an admission of your error.
domino-710
·3 years agoJust LOL.
*sons_n_daughters*
·3 years agoWhy is it LOL? He is absolutely correct. If AP had refunded the postage, then no one would be out of pocket, but they're not going to do that.
domino-710
·3 years agoJust LOL - again.
There are 4 pages of trying to explain he is correct.
sugar249
·3 years agoAnd AP shouldnt be returning the postage, they held up their side of the bargain, in fact they went over and above by returning the item. They generally for OS sales are entitled to actually get the sender to pay for that.
davewil1964
·3 years agoMy bad, you seem to be correct.
Not having experienced the scenario myself, I erred.
As far as you OP goes, it is a cost of doing business, especially internationally.
michael_cullis
·3 years agoThanks Dave. I respect your admission. And I admit I should have posted my question on Discogs or PayPal. I clicked the wrong bookmark. Put it down to my advanced age.
countessalmirena
·3 years agoSeller used buyer’s funds to pay for postage. Had seller not refunded the buyer in full (including the amount for the postage), seller would not be out the postage amount; however, seller did refund in full and thus the postage amount (which is still in the hands of AP) is no longer paid by the buyer. It is now the seller who paid the postage amount.
Seller shouldn’t have refunded; if tracking showed that the parcel was unclaimed, buyer wouldn’t have been entitled to a refund of the postage amount. It’s a $32 lesson; don’t refund postage if buyer fails to collect item!
springyzone
·3 years agoIt seems obvious to me that there is no such thing as free postage.
Auspost didn't handle this item for free.
They charged $32 for it.
And moreover, Auspost has not and will not refund that money because they did the job they were paid for.
So someone has to be out of pocket for that $32. It has to be either the buyer, seller or paypal.
We know the buyer originally paid the $32 to cover postage. But he was given a full refund of $45, meaning that he had the postage component returned to him. So the buyer is not out of pocket.
The refund was given via paypal but I am not getting the vibe they paid it out of their own funds as a peacekeeping gesture. We have been told the refund came out of the seller's funds.
So Paypal is not out of pocket.
That leaves the seller. He was originally given $32 to pay the cost of the postage, which he did. At that stage no, he was not out a single cent, the buyer funds were covering it.
But then the seller lost all those buyer funds, they went back to the buyer. But.. the money had already been spent. Aus post had the money and they aren't returning it.
There's no such thing as free post so in this case, the seller is out of pocket.
Solution? I doubt if there is one. If the seller initiated the refund himself because the item was late, then it wasn't through a paypal claim as such. Paypal didn't make that business decision, I'm not sure they can be held responsible, though you could always contact them to see where you stand.
Wouldn't have a clue about discogs or the possibility of a refund there.
Although it isn't the seller's fault the item was not picked up, fact remains the buyer didn't get the item and it was returned to seller. Personally, sardonicus, I suspect you will end up wearing the postage loss on this one. Maybe on cheaper items, you might be better off to limit what countries you will post to?
danieh_6
·3 years agoLodge a case with AP?
davewil1964
·3 years agoYou've been around for a while -
1. Discogs is NOT eBay. Why are you asking here?
2. Your buyer presumably paid $45 in total. If they were refunded that, then you are only out non-refundable Paypal fees.
3. Simple mathematics is a requirement for running any sort of business.
4. Discogs is NOT eBay. Why are you asking here?
sardonicus001
OP3 years agoI'm afraid your maths is too simple and also incorrect. My reasoning? The buyer paid me $32 postage. I used that $32 to buy a postage label. The buyer did not collect his package (even though it was delivered). PayPal refunded him the $32. Ipso facto, I am down the $32 I paid for the label. Tell me where I am wrong.
davewil1964
·3 years agoWhere you are are wrong is contained in your post.
The buyer was refunded the $32. You paid $32 for postage. Unless you were charged $32 for the return, you are not out of pocket.
Maybe provide some REAL figures. Like total receipts, total refunded. The total cost to you at the end of the transaction. Total other things that would get deleted if I mentioned them.
And I reiterate, what has this to do with eBay?
michael_cullis
·3 years agoIt has nothing to do with eBay. My mistake. I apologise profusely. The question is relevant anyway.
Real figures? Someone, namely me, paid Australia post $32 for postage. The buyer initially paid me $32 for postage. He was refunded the $32 by Paypal. Note that I bought the label and no one refunded me. Hence I am out of pocket $32.
gutterpunkz05
·3 years agoWho was actually responsible for funding the refund. If PP met the cost as a matter of goodwill, then you the seller are not out of pocket, but if PP have fully refunded the buyer at your expense, then you are out of pocket the $32 actual postage fee.
sardonicus001
OP3 years agoThank you gutterpunkz05. I cannot remember the details. I have a policy of refunding buyers if their order doesn't arrive in a reasonable time. I think that what happened that the buyer in Norway complained that his order had not arrived after a month so I gave him a refund. The CD arrived in my letterbox yesterday as it had not been claimed. The tracking number shows that it was delivered but not claimed and then returned to me. I may approach PayPal with a view to having them refund me the postage.
eol-products
·3 years agoThe buyer would have had to make a paypal claim for you to be covered for seller protection so I do not see that you can do it retrospectively in this case.
davewil1964
·3 years agoIncorrect
gutterpunkz05
·3 years agoSo the seller receives X for postage. ]
The seller spends X for postage
Seller also spends X as refund to buyer
Incoming = X
Outgoing = 2X
X - 2X = -X (Neg X)
Now if X = $32 the seller is in receipt of -X or minus $32
To me $32 minus $64 = out of pocket $32
davewil1964
·3 years agoLet's do some numbers.
You were paid x plus $32.
You paid $32 for postage. Not your money, the buyer's.
You refunded x plus $32.
You have the item back.
As the buyer funded the postage cost, you never actually paid it - the buyer did.
You have the item back, so you are only out non-refundable fees.
sardonicus001
OP3 years agoYou are missing the point. I will break it down into simple points.
1. The buyer paid the $32 postage into my account.
2. I used that payment of $32 to pay for the shipping label (so far we agree).
3. I refunded the $32 to the buyer, meaning that he didn't pay for the postage.
4. I was not refunded the $32 by Australia Post. Ipso facto, my original payment to Australia Post came from my account which was not replenished.
It is point 4 which you have not taken into account. If you persist in insisting that I did not lose $32, who paid Australia Post?
Perhaps we need a referee.
davewil1964
·3 years agoPerhaps you need to understand Year 1 Maths.
How much did the TOTAL transaction end up costing you? Something you seem to be unwilling to provide the answer to.
I'll bet eBay fees, not your mysterious $32 postage, that the seller paid.
davewil1964
·3 years agoIt is point 4 which you have not taken into account. If you persist in insisting that I did not lose $32, who paid Australia Post?
Your buyer, through the funds they paid you for postage.
repentatleisure1952
·3 years agodave... trying to explain facts to the OP will result in a headache.
sardonicus001
OP3 years agorepentatleisure1952, please refer to my reply to davewill1964 who has not been explaining the "facts" to me. Perhaps you could explain how the buyer has paid for the postage despite the fact that I refunded him that cost. It seems quite straightforward to me. I think your friend would be a better off taking a less combatitive approach and toning down his insulting language.
twyngwyn
·3 years agoIf item is 'unclaimed' then surely the buyer is up for the cost of postage......what am I missing here?
papermoon.lady
·3 years agoI think you are right. Unclaimed is basically passive refusal of a delivery, and the MBG does not apply to refusal of a delivery, but the buyer was refunded by PayPal, and maybe they have different rules, but I agree that it is unfair to the seller. Obviously the item should be refunded, but if a buyer does not pick an item up, it is not the seller's fault and the seller should not pay for postage.
I wonder if the tracking clearly said that the item was awaiting collection at the post office?
domino-710
·3 years agoThat was 3 pages ago - think it's time to put this one to bed.
The OP stated the item was returned ' unclaimed ' - so of course it was waiting for claim - the when not ' claimed ' it was returned.
Time's up for eBay - PP has refunded - end of.
gutterpunkz05
·3 years agoI was unaware Discogs was a part of ebay.
sardonicus001
OP3 years agoMy mistake. I must have clicked the wrong link, I meant to pose the question on a Discogs furum. I have also realised that I haven't lost any money. The buyer paid $45 for the item and the postage and was refunded that $45. I am not out of pocket and even have the CD which I can relist. Thanks everybody (even the more sarcastic of you). Nonetheless, the tracking number shows that the item was delivered but not collected, which was not my fault.
eol-products
·3 years agoSo you are saying Paypal funded the refund and not you. Its been some time since using Paypal as a seller so if I remember correctly you only need to show the item was sent not delivered to be covered by the seller protection.
repentatleisure1952
·3 years agoDid the buyer not pay the cost of postage?
gutterpunkz05
·3 years agoProbably, but the buyer has received a full refund from paypal, leaving Sardo $32 out of pocket
imastawka
·3 years agoPaypal refunded the buyer in full.
The buyer paid for the postage, not the seller, so no-one's out of pocket!
edit: I'm amazed at the number of sellers coming to these boards insisting they're out of pocket for postage, just because they physically paid when handing over the parcel.
The buyer pays, not the seller!
imastawka
·3 years agoAnd they got their item back.
So, still not out of pocket.
gutterpunkz05
·3 years agoNo the buyer pays the seller for the postage component, but the seller then pays AP or other carrier. The buyer is fully refunded by the seller via paypal. AP however still has the money paid by the seller for postage, and there is no way they are going to refund it. So yes the seller is out of pocket for the 32 they have paid to AP ?. They no longer have the postage component paid by the buyer, and they have no way of recovering their costs from AP.