What recourse do I have when eBay "gives" an item to a buyer?
Hello! I live in Australia. On 01 Oct I sold a personal, valuable and authentic Louis Vuitton Speedy bag for $780+$50 shipping to a buyer located in the United States. The listing item said the seller does not accept returns, unless the item is not as described. About 5 days after the buyer received the item, they opened a refund request with no details. Despite asking for details, I got no further message from the buyer.
On October 18, eBay sent me a message asking I provide the buyer with a return label within four business days. That same day, eBay also informed me that a return case (Case # 5325049703) had been created and put on hold until October 23, to allow the buyer to provide further information. This mixed messaging from eBay left me perplexed and concerned about the handling of the situation and I reported the buyer transaction to eBay
To my dismay, on Oct 23 eBay refunded the buyer in full, withheld $89.76 payout pending from another sale and plans to deduct a further $41.12 from my bank account. Basically eBay seems intent on charging me about 15% commission for the sale that it refunded. Worse - it is unclear what has happened to the valuable Louis Vuitton bag in question. I have not been given the option to provide a return label to the buyer, nor have I received any communication regarding the whereabouts of the item. In essence, eBay has effectively taken possession of my valuable bag, provided it to the buyer without due process, and is now seeking additional money from me.
The icing on the cake is that the webpage to appeal the case is not working. I've tried two computers and three browsers, and the 'Submit Appeal' button stays grayed out: https://www.ebay.com.au/ReturnCase/5325049703/AppealRequest
So how can I get my item back and appeal this decision?
renki4649
·2 years agoAlso the dispute fee is related to bank chargebacks, not the internal INR/INAD process.
countessalmirena
·2 years agoeBay have automated many of the processes, which means very little human intervention. That means lower ongoing costs and higher profits. I’m not going to pretend any sympathy for eBay occasionally having staff look in at a dispute, or for eBay’s “stepping in”… particularly when the cost of refunding a buyer falls ultimately upon the seller.
I DO think sellers need to be aware of the processes and how automated they are. OP, please do as gutterpunkz has commented; get onto the Help pages and read as many pages as you can, to make yourself thoroughly aware of the policies and their timeframes, implementations, etc. Post any questions on these boards if anything seems unclear.
For sellers who deliberately try to avoid resolving issues, a resolution fee might be another incentive for them to act correctly, but I’m worried that innocent sellers may be caught up in this rather than bad sellers. Presumably bad sellers will calculate whether this fee is offset by large profits selling damaged/fake/SNAD items to buyers and lulling along any who complain with the typical line of excuses… whereas the more inexperienced or naïve sellers won’t have those profit margins and will be caught out in disputes.
Bottom line: sellers need to protect themselves by knowing eBay T&Cs and policies and procedures inside out.
sugar249
·2 years agoI think your latest novel, just highlights the fact that you have chosen to cherry pick bits of the process that you agree with to suit your side of the situation, but ignores the basic concept that you didnt follow the process.
As for your complaint about them still charging a commission, yes you sold the item on the Ebay platform, as such Commission is payable as they provided the service. But beyond that they had to try to go through the effort of trying to facilitate a return, which you didnt do, than make the refund because of your failure. In my opinion in circumstances such as this where a seller fails in their obligation, Ebay should be able to charge an additional fee for the time and effort. sellers should not be allowed to get of scott free because they decide they don't want to complete their obligation.
gutterpunkz05
·2 years agoHi Sugar, ebay do now charge a dispute resolution fee, $22 from memory, payable when a seller fails to resolve a dispute and ebay finds in buyers favour.
sugar249
·2 years agoNo I didnt know that, and thats great and I hope this seller got hit with it.
springyzone
·2 years agoI'm sorry to say this on an open forum, but I think that was a bit nasty.
We have here a seller who is fairly new to ebay & who did not ignore ebay messages as such but more was confused by them.
They have come here for advice because so far, they have already lost a bag valued at $780 plus $50 postage. As well as still paying all ebay fees on that sale.
And you're rejoicing because they may lose another $22?
All this may be fair enough if the seller had sent a faulty item but the key thing here is the buyer has provided no details or photos and has not been required to provide any before ebay refunded the money. The seller (in my opinion) is highly likely to have been scammed. Regardless of their mistakes, I don't like to see that happen to anyone.
repentatleisure1952
·2 years agoDon't be sorry springy.
You are 100% correct.
Imo the poster you replied to delights in schadenfreude.
domino-710
·2 years agoI've often wondered if the ' abrasive contempt ' is carried over into RL.
springyzone
·2 years agoI actually am sorry. I've been a bit abrupt in a few of my comments lately. I could have worded them better.
sonamchauhan123
OP2 years agoThanks!! Your's has been the most helpful reply. My wife and I have been buying and selling here for over a decade (using this, and a second profile). We made international sales, but not such a high-value item.
I get the feeling you were under the impression a real person at ebay was overseeing your case. Just about everything on ebay is automated & when you are given a date, that pretty much means you have to have taken some action by then.
Yes, that was my impression. Automated or not, if the eBay return case process does not actually review of evidence behind the buyer claim, eBay are misrepresenting the 'review' service they provide. (eBay message on Oct 18: "Case #5325049703: We’re reviewing the buyer’s return").
Yes, if an item does not match description, a refund must be made. But the buyer claim must be at least reviewed. Instead, in communication today, eBay confirmed that my case "review" was not to review the buyer's claim. Instead, it was purely my "chance to provide the buyer a return label". So there was no real review done. Neither was it communciated that the ostensible review was just a "chance to provide the buyer a return label"
"The buyer reached out to us after this timeframe and we gave you 5 more days, considering this as a chance to provide your buyer a return label. However, the buyer still didn’t hear from you. Because of this, the case closed and a refund was issued to your buyer."
Instead, eBay advised me the return case review was going "on hold" pending documentation from the buyer. Going "on hold" implies the return process and any associated deadlines are on hold too. Keeping those deadlines ticking along while no review was carried out, nor communication that the "review" period was only to provide return postage was misrepresentation.
eBay advised me repeatedly that buying a return label was an option (in fact, they said so today in the appeal: "Since the shipping label was not provided to the buyer, we decided to keep our decision."). This too is misrepresentation because return labels are NOT available to international sellers. Repeatedly stating labels are available sets up the seller for failure against an impossible obligation -- completing an international payment (after estimating postage, duty, customs etc) outside of eBay in the same timeframe of a US seller. What was I supposed to do -- use Western Union?
eBay charged a commission of $130.88 on the refunded item. When askedto explain, eBay communicated this to me on 25 Oct:
"2. Your item is sold technically. We have given you a chance to take action on the case. Since eBay resolves the case for you the final value fee cannot be credited back."
Apart from the misrepresentations above, how can eBay claim "the item [was] sold technically" when it is refunded? A refund is the opposite of a sale.
My return review case was specifically put "on hold" until after the return deadline expired. This is curious. The fact the webpage to file a case appeal was disabled (tested by multiple people) until I complained on Twitter is stretching coincidence. That raises the possibility of a dark pattern being exploited by bad actors within eBay unbeknownst to eBay. Anyway, that's just a possiblity.
Between item value, eBay fees and postage spent, I'm already out $1000. I've reached out to the buyer requesting a return and offering postage. I've also asked eBay whether they told the buyer, explicity or by implication, the buyer can keep my goods without returning them. eBay did say "In case they agree to return the item, you can provide them with a shipping label or shipping charge. Most buyers easily agree to these options since they already got their refund." But I have asked eBay to make its position clear in writing about who holds current title to the goods. That's the least they can do as an intermediatory.
gutterpunkz05
·2 years agoYou really need to do some research into international selling and the pitfalls/risks involved. Research how to get things free online, it may help you protect yourself in the future.
springyzone
·2 years agoI can feel your pain.
If I did not frequent these boards regularly, I probably would have been a bit confused too.
Ebay instructions should be crystal clear, but more than that, there should be room for some flexibility.
Did ebay send a reminder, along the lines of eg This case is closing on 23 Oct and you will need to have taken action to resolve it by then by arranging postage or ebay will step in and may award a refund to buyer without return of the item.
It sounds as if you can now appeal but the problem ebay has is they have refunded the buyer so if you win an appeal, that $800+ comes out of ebay's coffers, they can't get the money back from the buyer, as far as I know. So I think they will resist awarding it to you. Appeal all the same.
Where ebay goes wrong (I believe) is that they so easily allow a buyer to win a claim of not as described.
In the original claim, were you able to upload evidence of authenticity or did the buyer offer any reason why they thought it not as described? I do understand that in cases of not as described, ebay more or less has to take a buyer's word for it as they can't personally see the items, but I do think a buyer should have to at the very least state why something is not as described. Or provide photos, if possible.
I know you can't provide a return label for an international sale but I think ebay expects you to communicate with buyer and arrange to pay the return postage before the deadline. There's another thread here but on the Buying board, the title of it is How to prove when buyer claims I sent the wrong item.
It might be an interesting read for you as this seller also got scammed but ended winning an appeal I think it was. It was an international sale too. But if you read that thread, the buyer quoted $100 or some such sum needed for return postage, when it had only cost the seller about $45 to post it.
Unfortunately the bottom line here with you is you have probably lost your money for good. I am so sorry to hear it. But if you keep selling on ebay, just keep in mind that in a dispute their dates are cut off dates & you as seller have to have acted by then.
sugar249
·2 years agospringyzone
·2 years agosonamchauhan123
OP2 years agoThanks @sprinyzone - I see your note to 'sugar'. You are both fair and kind.
I've got the expected refusal of my appeals.
The buyer never provided a reason for the INAD expect for the phrase "I want a full refund".
springyzone
·2 years agoObviously the whole process has been confusing for you. I get the feeling you were under the impression a real person at ebay was overseeing your case. Just about everything on ebay is automated & when you are given a date, that pretty much means you have to have taken some action by then.
I can't know for sure, but your feedback score of 13 on this account suggests you may be fairly new to ebay buying & selling. If that is the case, it may not be a good idea to be listing an item worth over $800, especially one you're willing to post overseas. You'd be much better off limiting sales to Australia only. That way, if someone does say an item isn't as described, you can easily issue a return postage label. The process is not so easy if it is an overseas customer.
I hate to say this, but some scammers will see a newish seller with a high priced item and know that there is a possibility they may be able to get a refund plus keep the goods if the seller isn't savvy enough to know the ropes. You're not the first person it has happened to. Yes, the buyer gets to keep the item unless you provide postage. But now that it is all closed as far as ebay is concerned, I am not sure how much I would trust this buyer in private negotiations. Message them and sound them out.
If you want to contact ebay about an appeal, don't do it via message. Go to chat help. It's via text but you'll eventually get a real person.
sugar249
·2 years agoNot sure what your issue is. You failed to issue return postage in the required timeframe (you admit it in your rambles). No point muddying the waters with all your other stuff. You had one simple thing to do, you didn't.
If you are going to play in the big world of international sales, or any sales really, learn how they work.
Ebay hasnt given the item to the buyer, you have by not following process.
sonamchauhan123
OP2 years ago- The appeal button on the eBay website was grayed out regardless of what I did. There was some control being applied on the eBay website side that prevented me clicking 'Submit' or even attaching files to the appeal.
In the meantime, the eBayAU Twitter handle has advised me on DM that will not reverse the decision of the case.
-------------------------------------------------------
cam-2793
·2 years agoThere is no eBay officer managing the return request ( also known as a case) the entire process is automated. You had four days to respond and did not !
This is from eBay help pages:
Your options for responding to a buyer's request depend on the reason they're returning the item, and the return policy you stated in your listing.
The item doesn't match the listing, or it arrived damaged or faulty
If a buyer receives an item that's different to the listing, or if it arrives damaged or faulty and the purchase is covered by eBay Money Back Guarantee, they can return it to you even if your return policy states that you don't accept returns.
If you don't respond to the return request, we may refund the buyer and seek reimbursement from you, without requiring the buyer to send the item back.
Here are your response options:
Accept the return
The buyer will send the item back to you for a full refund, including the original postage cost. You'll also be responsible for covering return postage costs.
eBay may automatically accept a return on your behalf if it falls within the terms of the eBay Money Back Guarantee policy and an eBay return postage label is available. Once you've received the item back, you have 3 business days to review it and refund the buyer, or ask eBay to step in and help.
If you accept the return but the item is returned used or damaged, you may qualify to deduct an amount from the buyer's refund.
They will not refund the selling fee because you were unable to resolve the case( aka formal return request) and they stepped in!
Reporting the buyer as soon as they requested a return was also an error even though it is possible the saw an inexperienced seller with an expensive item and figured they could leverage you not knowing what to do ( especially with overseas returns which are more complex) to get a free bag - which they now have!
cam-2793
·2 years agoPlease read the following links to reduce the chance of being caught out again
https://www.ebay.com.au/help/selling/managing-returns-refunds/return-postage-sellers?id=4703#section5
https://www.ebay.com.au/help/selling/managing-returns-refunds/handle-return-request-seller?id=4115#section1
And update your postage options to exclude international buyers until you have a bit more experience.
cam-2793
·2 years agoIn addition to what Gutterpunkz said, because it was an international return you will not be able to buy a postage label through eBay and would need to work out something with the buyer to pay for postage before they send it.
Had you been able to resolve the issue you would have been able to get refund of seller fees but when eBay steps in and resolves it you lose that option.
I recommend reading up on returns procedure and international sales on eBay help pages before you sell anything else overseas.
The "further information" eBay would have been waiting for would have been confirmation from the buyer that postage had been supplied, as it was not, eBay refunded without requiring the item to be returned as you did not pay for postage!
sonamchauhan123
OP2 years agoThe "further information" eBay would have been waiting for would have been confirmation from the buyer that postage had been supplied, as it was not, eBay refunded without requiring the item to be returned as you did not pay for postage!
No - because then the return is not being investigated and eBay has decided I lost the case. But this was not communicated to me on the 20th.
Instead, an eBay officer purposely suspended the return case between Oct 18 to Oct 23 to fall on the exact same day the deadline to process the return expired.
The only information I got from eBay about a case decision was this notice on the 23rd:
Case # 5325049703 eBay has made a final decision in this case.
Your buyer was refunded
Hi Sonam,
We reviewed this case and decided to issue the buyer a full refund.
The buyer claimed that the item didn't match the description.
A refund of AU $830.00 was issued on to the buyer. The refund includes the purchase price plus original postage.
This amount will be deducted from your account.
So on the 23rd October, I lost both -- the case, and the ability to pay for the return -- at the same time. This was due to eBay's extending the return case decision. That means I had zero time to find out that I had lost the case and to process a return.
repentatleisure1952
·2 years agoYour bag(s) should have been sent to the eBay authentication centre as per your listing(s).
How did you manage to bypass this?
You appear to have sold this bag 3 times or did you have 3 for sale?
Have a read...
https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/selling-tools/ebay-authenticity-guarantee?id=4644&st=3&pos=1&query=eBay%20Authenticity%20Guarantee&intent=auth&lucenceai=lucenceai&docId=HELP1344
padi*0409
·2 years agoIf bags like that are bought from overseas they don't go through that process, perhaps it works the same way in reverse R@L?
repentatleisure1952
·2 years agoPerhaps you are correct padi.
I could not find anything re o/s sales.
gutterpunkz05
·2 years agoYep, international sales are sent direct to buyer, rather than via authenticator.
OP, you were given 4 days to supply a label, so obviously the claim was for INAD, you must comply with this or the case will be closed and you lose.
Return of your item, is now a matter between you and the buyer.
Don,t know why the appeal tab is greyed out, maybe you now need to add new evidence before submitting, as without new evidence it will be auto declined.
sonamchauhan123
OP2 years ago- I was wondering about the 'Authentication item' - the label just got applied automatically. I guess the 'overseas shipping exclusion' that someone else explained below applies here.
- No, I only sold the one bag. The bag 'sold' twice, only for both buyers to cancel. I relisted several times and ultimately sold the bag at a reduced price to a third buyer. This buyer paid, only to refund and keep the bag.
Regarding the return...
- Yes, eBay sent me a message on 18th Oct that I must accept a return by the 23rd. Quoting:
If you don't provide return shipping or otherwise resolve the return within 4 calendar days, you may be required to issue the buyer a full refund without the item being returned to you.
- That same day, 18th Oct, eBay sent me a second message the return was now a case.
You can expect an update from us within 48 hours. There’s nothing you need to do right now, but if you have questions, you can contact us.
- Now this is key: around Oct 20, the status display for the return changed. It now said the return case was 'on hold' till the 22nd or the 23rd to enable the buyer to provide documentation about the return.
Now a return case is either is on hold or it is not. Here, an eBay officer suspended the return case between Oct 18 to Oct 23 -- the exact same day the deadline to process the return expired.
So on the 23rd October, I lost both -- the case, and the ability to pay for the return -- at the same time. This was due to eBay's extending the return case decision so I had zero time to accept that I had lost the case and to process the return. How could I action the return - it was either on hold, or I had lost the goods.
A side note: on the 18, I got concerned with my experience to report to eBay that the buyer appeared to be abusing the return process. eBay never responded.