topic Re: PHONE TAPPING in Community Spirit

PHONE TAPPING

newstart2380 — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 04:59:58 GMT

Should Tony Abbott apologise for the Labor parties phone tapping when Rudd was PM ?

Or should KRudd stand up and apologise for what happened under his leadership ?

Aparently most countries participate in phone tapping and if the Indonesian government is upset and want to take it furtther then withdraw tthe aid Australa gives Indonesia and encourage people to stop holidaying there, that would give them something to think about. Typical bluff tactics from the Indonesians. I am not condoning the practise but they are getting a bit to precious over the whole thing.

Re: PHONE TAPPING

the_hawk* — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 05:10:18 GMT

Not sure why any country or person would be shocked.

Its been happening for a very long time.

Re: PHONE TAPPING

polksaladallie — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 05:11:18 GMT

Since Adam was a boy.

Re: PHONE TAPPING

lakeland27 — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 05:17:35 GMT

@newstart2380 wrote:
Should Tony Abbott apologise for the Labor parties phone tapping when Rudd was PM ?
Or should KRudd stand up and apologise for what happened under his leadership ?
Aparently most countries participate in phone tapping and if the Indonesian government is upset and want to take it furtther then withdraw tthe aid Australa gives Indonesia and encourage people to stop holidaying there, that would give them something to think about. Typical bluff tactics from the Indonesians. I am not condoning the practise but they are getting a bit to precious over the whole thing.

a political party didn't hack anything. a joint aust-us security agency exercise did.

Re: PHONE TAPPING

newstart2380 — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 05:22:14 GMT

@lakeland27 wrote:
@newstart2380 wrote:
Should Tony Abbott apologise for the Labor parties phone tapping when Rudd was PM ?
Or should KRudd stand up and apologise for what happened under his leadership ?
Aparently most countries participate in phone tapping and if the Indonesian government is upset and want to take it furtther then withdraw tthe aid Australa gives Indonesia and encourage people to stop holidaying there, that would give them something to think about. Typical bluff tactics from the Indonesians. I am not condoning the practise but they are getting a bit to precious over the whole thing.

a political party didn't hack anything. a joint aust-us security agency exercise did.

Apparently it was introduced when Rudd was PM in 2006 if one believes the press reports (I know you don't) If this is the case then he should step forward but I bet he won't.

Re: PHONE TAPPING

*crikey*mate* — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 05:22:50 GMT

Yes, I think Mr Abbott should be held accountable for tapping anyone's phones. Did he do so legally? What were his reasons? Off the cuff, without knowing details, that just seems really wrong.

Did he suspect treason or something? It sounds a bit off.

What happened under Mr Rudd's leadewrship? Was that illegal etc?

Just because "most countries do it" it doesn't make it right. Although there may be some international laws relating to terrorism which allow for surveilance. I don't know. But If it is legal and the intent was pure, I have no problem with that.

If what we did was illegal and unwarranted, then I don't blame Indonesia for being cross.

And if Australia withdrew support because another country objected to us doing something illegal, I would be very cross and ashamed.

Actually, I would be cross any way as hopefully, we don't extend assistance as a way to bribe or control, hopefully we do it because we can and we care about the people.

I will never support bribery and the threat of withdrawing assistance - charity is not meant to be given with conditions. if our money was not reaching the people and being used for nefarious resons, then I have no problem with stopping the donations then, but to discourage tourism etc - that also helps the people at the source etc etc yada

They are two separate issues and need to be handled separately.

Re: PHONE TAPPING

lakeland27 — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 05:31:13 GMT

the incident in question happened in august, the marriot hotel in jakarta and another were bombed in july and i think 2 australian citizens killed. imagine if they didn't follow all possible sources of information up. abbott is not folowing the rather stupid 'rudd did' it line (for once) as the opposition leader was probably briefed as is the practice.

Re: PHONE TAPPING

tezza2844 — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 05:45:09 GMT

I think you'll find Rudd was elected PM in 2007. John Howard was PM in 2006

Re: PHONE TAPPING

*crikey*mate* — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 05:53:51 GMT

@lakeland27 wrote:
the incident in question happened in august, the marriot hotel in jakarta and another were bombed in july and i think 2 australian citizens killed. imagine if they didn't follow all possible sources of information up. abbott is not folowing the rather stupid 'rudd did' it line (for once) as the opposition leader was probably briefed as is the practice.

could you expand on this and fuill in the blanks for me please? I know about the bombings in Jakarta marriott, but not the political connections etc.

(is this the one where a car drove into the Marriott's driveway and blew up?)

Re: PHONE TAPPING

*crikey*mate* — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 06:02:27 GMT

@my*mum wrote:
@lakeland27 wrote:
the incident in question happened in august, the marriot hotel in jakarta and another were bombed in july and i think 2 australian citizens killed. imagine if they didn't follow all possible sources of information up. abbott is not folowing the rather stupid 'rudd did' it line (for once) as the opposition leader was probably briefed as is the practice.
could you expand on this and fuill in the blanks for me please? I know about the bombings in Jakarta marriott, but not the political connections etc.

(is this the one where a car drove into the Marriott's driveway and blew up?)

it's ok, I just asked, it's not the driveway one. The jakarta one happened in july 2009. but could you please expand on your post so I can understand please?

Re: PHONE TAPPING

lakeland27 — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 06:04:39 GMT

At around 07:47 until 07:57 WIB (00:47-00:57 UTC) on 17 July 2009,[4] the JW Marriott and Ritz-Carlton Hotels in Jakarta, Indonesia, were hit by separate bombings five minutes apart.[2][5] Three of the seven victims who were killed were Australians, two from The Netherlands, and one each from New Zealand and Indonesia.[2][6] More than 50 people were injured in the blasts.[6][7][8] Both blasts were caused by suicide bombers, who checked into the hotels as paying guests several days earlier.[9] The twin suicide bombings came four years after the last serious terrorist attack in Indonesia.[10]

WIKI. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Jakarta_bombings

Re: PHONE TAPPING

*crikey*mate* — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 06:05:12 GMT

The car bomb one was 2003

Re: PHONE TAPPING

donnashuggy — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 06:08:20 GMT

The real question is would rudd have handled himself better than abbott today?

Undoubtedly yes.

Re: PHONE TAPPING

*crikey*mate* — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 06:09:24 GMT

@lakeland27 wrote:
At around 07:47 until 07:57 WIB (00:47-00:57 UTC) on 17 July 2009,[4] the JW Marriott and Ritz-Carlton Hotels in Jakarta, Indonesia, were hit by separate bombings five minutes apart.[2][5] Three of the seven victims who were killed were Australians, two from The Netherlands, and one each from New Zealand and Indonesia.[2][6] More than 50 people were injured in the blasts.[6][7][8] Both blasts were caused by suicide bombers, who checked into the hotels as paying guests several days earlier.[9] The twin suicide bombings came four years after the last serious terrorist attack in Indonesia.[10]
WIKI. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Jakarta_bombings

ok, so how does this tie into the OP? I don't know enough to join the dots.

(My OH was part of the reopening team for both the 2003 and 2009 explosions, but wasn't there for the explosions, so the marriott bit is of interest to me too)

Re: PHONE TAPPING

lakeland27 — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 06:12:37 GMT

well , the bombings were in july, the phone taps in august . it has been suggested the phones were tapped to gather information on the assumption the indonesian leadership might be first to hear of any leads.

Re: PHONE TAPPING

*crikey*mate* — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 06:26:40 GMT

@lakeland27 wrote:
well , the bombings were in july, the phone taps in august . it has been suggested the phones were tapped to gather information on the assumption the indonesian leadership might be first to hear of any leads.

ok, getting the drift now thank you.

did we have reason to suspect that Indonesia may not handle the investigations properly? I really don't know too much about our laws pertaining to terrorism outside the PoCA

and it was Mr Abbott that tapped the phones? (he was in opposition then, no?) Why would that have been his "responsibility" or course of action rather than our actual leaders?

Was it to somehow protect Australia? (The attack was not against Australia)

Was it legal?

Was it justified?

Re: PHONE TAPPING

*crikey*mate* — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 06:31:21 GMT

These are some of the principles at the heart of the Australian Democracy

Principles

Australian democracy has at its heart, the following core defining principles:

Responsible Government since the government is answerable to the parliament for its actions and for those of its departments—as administered by the Public Service.
Ministerial Responsibility since a minister is expected to accept full responsibility for decisions made by his or her department.
Rule of Law since all Australian people (including Australian authorities) are equally required to uphold the law and are subject to legal and judicial processes. (See Rule of Law timeline).

Then according to this, both Mr Abbott and Mr Rudd are to be held accountable for their actions.

Re: PHONE TAPPING

spotweldersfriend — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 06:35:15 GMT

Well, they are the infrastructure government.Time to build some bridges,it seems.

Re: PHONE TAPPING

donnashuggy — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 06:39:20 GMT

Maybe they can build them with broken boats.

Re: PHONE TAPPING

i-need-a-martini — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 10:59:30 GMT

I think you miss the point entirely newstart.

All governments spy on other governments. And they get caught.

However, Abbott (and Bishop) has/is handling this incident (and others relating to Indonesia) so poorly that it beggars belief.

I doubt if any other government (Labor or Liberal) could have dug a quicker hole for themselves than this government has done. perhaps one of the biggest problems is that he has Bishop as his Foreign Minister. Someone with much more nous (sp?) and political savvy would have dealt with this much more strategically.