topic Re: At Any Cost. in Community Spirit

At Any Cost.

icyfroth — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 01:06:26 GMT

I had a big day out with my bestie yesterday. We usually meet up every few months or so at 8.30 for brekkie at a random Maccas of my choosing, catch up with all the goss, then go on to trawl the local op shops for bargains. Usually we finish up around 2pm.

Yesterday, 2pm we went to the Henry Lawson Theatre at Werribee, she'd been there before and liked it and suggested it would be something we could both enjoy.

The piece was At Any Cost and dealt with the care of terminal patients at an advanced age. From the blurb:

"David Williamson is Australia’s best known and most widely performed playwright, writing plays that reflect our lives and aspirations. At Any Cost? is thoroughly modern and up to date dealing with health issues that we face now.

Despite the serious subject there are many laughs in this play but the ending is a deeply moving experience. The family members are completely divided, as tensions rise, and long-held secrets unfold, they begin to understand each others point of view and grow from this highly charged and emotional situation.

We welcome you to a thought provoking theatre experience."

What it actually was is... an 85 yo was in ICU, terminally ill. Too weak to be operated on and even if they did they would only restore her to her previous vegetative state, as she'd had a stroke some time beforehand, was bedridden and cared for by her aged husband. He refused the doctor's reccommendations to take his wife off ventilation vehemently.

His eldest daughter pleaded with him to do it. The younger 2 were not sure.

All sorts of family secrets came out. Infidelity, child abuse, favoritism. In the end the husband gave consent to take his beloved wife of life-support.

It was a bit amateur, but moving all the same.

It did also provoke thought. Some of the thoughts I went away with: "it costs $50.000 a day to keep a terminally ill patient in ICU."

75% of taxpayer-funded medical care is spent on ppl with, on average, only 6 mths to live anyway"

Is it worth it?

Re: At Any Cost.

lloydslights — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 01:26:01 GMT

Is that amount correct Icy?

Anyway, my dear old Dad was given an option for operating prior to going into the palliative care ward. He declined it saying that someone else who is younger would benefit more than he.

That ward was "killing him quicker" than he wanted. He didn't like how others were dying around him, how they were reacting to the news of their imminent death. The wailing! The groaning! The physical uncontrollable body functions!

I think it brought back memories of his time at the Japanese POW camp.

He chose to go home to live out his days. In the peace and quiet of the home he built for his family.

DEB

Re: At Any Cost.

lind9650 — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 01:27:17 GMT

Sounds like an interesting movie, Icy, and by what you described I always felt that people should have a written report on their medical files about wanting to be kept on life support when there is no hope of reasonable recovery, or that they want the machines to be switched off.

Same kind of registering ones wishes as for organ donation. Then no family member can dictate to others what should be done.

I have my wishes on my medical files, and all my family, including my husband know them.

Erica

Re: At Any Cost.

polksaladallie — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 01:31:18 GMT

The Advanced Health Directive is available, but is not always adhered to. Theoretically, family members cannot go against its content.

Re: At Any Cost.

icyfroth — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 01:37:59 GMT

@lloydslights wrote:
Is that amount correct Icy?

Anyway, my dear old Dad was given an option for operating prior to going into the palliative care ward. He declined it saying that someone else who is younger would benefit more than he.

That ward was "killing him quicker" than he wanted. He didn't like how others were dying around him, how they were reacting to the news of their imminent death. The wailing! The groaning! The physical uncontrollable body functions!

I think it brought back memories of his time at the Japanese POW camp.

He chose to go home to live out his days. In the peace and quiet of the home he built for his family.

DEB

I don't know if that amount is correct, Lloyds...we questioned it as well. I haven't gone into it.

I'd refuse palliative care also and have instructed my children accordingly. Would they be torn as in the play, though?

Re: At Any Cost.

polksaladallie — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 01:40:47 GMT

@icyfroth wrote:
I don't know if that amount is correct, Lloyds...we questioned it as well. I haven't gone into it.
I'd refuse palliative care also and have instructed my children accordingly. Would they be torn as in the play, though?

You would refuse palliative care? You prefer to die in agony? I don't understand that.

Re: At Any Cost.

icyfroth — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 01:49:20 GMT

@polksaladallie wrote:
@icyfroth wrote:
I don't know if that amount is correct, Lloyds...we questioned it as well. I haven't gone into it.
I'd refuse palliative care also and have instructed my children accordingly. Would they be torn as in the play, though?
You would refuse palliative care? You prefer to die in agony? I don't understand that.

Erm... no. If I was diagnosed with a terminal illness, I'd refuse treatment but accept medication for the pain is what I meant.

In the play, the children asked for their mother to be made comfortable but to be taken off life support.

It's a bit close to home, but that's how we 3 sisters decided in the matter of our mother's passing, according to her wishes.

Re: At Any Cost.

freakiness — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 01:51:28 GMT

Palliative care is the treatment to reduce pain and make the last days as comfortable as possible.

Re: At Any Cost.

icyfroth — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 01:56:05 GMT

ok well refer to my post 7 above your post 8

Re: At Any Cost.

boris1gary — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 02:00:28 GMT

froth said -

It did also provoke thought. Some of the thoughts I went away with: "it costs $50.000 a day to keep a terminally ill patient in ICU."

75% of taxpayer-funded medical care is spent on ppl with, on average, only 6 mths to live anyway"

======================

the 50.000 you mention would not be the real cost. The amount of profit made on medical equipment, parts etc is outrageous, the profit on the cost of a lot of the medication is also huge - take away just those two things the real cost would be a lot lower. I remember some years ago one of the newspapers, think it was the telegraph, put the same question in regards to premature babies - was the cost justifiable, thankfully the horrible ideas put forward by the rag weren't picked up by the public or the medical profession. Surely human life should not be compared to the dollar.

Re: At Any Cost.

icyfroth — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 02:26:29 GMT

@boris1gary wrote:
froth said -
It did also provoke thought. Some of the thoughts I went away with: "it costs $50.000 a day to keep a terminally ill patient in ICU."
75% of taxpayer-funded medical care is spent on ppl with, on average, only 6 mths to live anyway"

======================

the 50.000 you mention would not be the real cost. The amount of profit made on medical equipment, parts etc is outrageous, the profit on the cost of a lot of the medication is also huge - take away just those two things the real cost would be a lot lower. I remember some years ago one of the newspapers, think it was the telegraph, put the same question in regards to premature babies - was the cost justifiable, thankfully the horrible ideas put forward by the rag weren't picked up by the public or the medical profession. Surely human life should not be compared to the dollar.

Yes but define "life".

In this case an aged person close to death anyway living in a vegetative state being kept alive by artificial means at huge cost to the taxpayer and huge profit to the pharmaceutical and medical equpment companies?

If that was me, I'd refuse it.

Re: At Any Cost.

bluecat*dancing — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 02:53:24 GMT

I don't think you quite understand what palliative care actually is. You can have palliative care at home.

Re: At Any Cost.

icyfroth — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 02:54:53 GMT

ok.

Re: At Any Cost.

bluecat*dancing — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 03:04:38 GMT

My dad received pall. care at home which was pain relief as well as a special bed and a personal carer was available if wanted. The Palliative Care people came to him. This was so he could die at home. [Didn't happen because the pager system failed and he ended up dying in hospital - palliative ward.] My mum died in a palliative care ward as it was impossible to care for at home due to her state. Ex MIL received pall. care at home which is where she died.

https://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/Palliative+Care-1

What is palliative care?

A person receiving palliative care will have an active, progressive and far-advanced disease, with little or no prospect of cure. The aim of palliative care is to achieve the best possible quality of life for the individual patient, their carers and family.
Palliative care:

affirms life and treats dying as a normal process;
neither hastens nor postpones death;
provides relief from pain and other distressing symptoms;
integrates the physical, psychological, social, emotional and spiritual aspects of care, with coordinated assessment and management of each person’s needs;
offers a support system to help people live as actively as possible until death; and
offers a support system to help the family cope during the person’s illness and in their own bereavement.

Re: At Any Cost.

icyfroth — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 03:10:03 GMT

@bluecat*dancing wrote:
My dad received pall. care at home which was pain relief as well as a special bed and a personal carer was available if wanted. The Palliative Care people came to him. This was so he could die at home. [Didn't happen because the pager system failed and he ended up dying in hospital - palliative ward.] My mum died in a palliative care ward as it was impossible to care for at home due to her state. Ex MIL received pall. care at home which is where she died.

https://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/Palliative+Care-1

What is palliative care?
A person receiving palliative care will have an active, progressive and far-advanced disease, with little or no prospect of cure. The aim of palliative care is to achieve the best possible quality of life for the individual patient, their carers and family.
Palliative care:
affirms life and treats dying as a normal process;
neither hastens nor postpones death;
provides relief from pain and other distressing symptoms;
integrates the physical, psychological, social, emotional and spiritual aspects of care, with coordinated assessment and management of each person’s needs;
offers a support system to help people live as actively as possible until death; and
offers a support system to help the family cope during the person’s illness and in their own bereavement.

Thank you.

refer to my post 7

Re: At Any Cost.

bluecat*dancing — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 03:13:27 GMT

Your post number 7 says that you would receive palliative care.

Re: At Any Cost.

icyfroth — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 03:15:50 GMT

@bluecat*dancing wrote:
Your post number 7 says that you would receive palliative care.

Then why did you feel the need to explain it?

Re: At Any Cost.

bluecat*dancing — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 03:21:59 GMT

Where is that brick wall...............

Re: At Any Cost.

boris1gary — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 03:24:17 GMT

@icyfroth wrote:
@boris1gary wrote:
froth said -
It did also provoke thought. Some of the thoughts I went away with: "it costs $50.000 a day to keep a terminally ill patient in ICU."
75% of taxpayer-funded medical care is spent on ppl with, on average, only 6 mths to live anyway"

======================

the 50.000 you mention would not be the real cost. The amount of profit made on medical equipment, parts etc is outrageous, the profit on the cost of a lot of the medication is also huge - take away just those two things the real cost would be a lot lower. I remember some years ago one of the newspapers, think it was the telegraph, put the same question in regards to premature babies - was the cost justifiable, thankfully the horrible ideas put forward by the rag weren't picked up by the public or the medical profession. Surely human life should not be compared to the dollar.

Yes but define "life".
In this case an aged person close to death anyway living in a vegetative state being kept alive by artificial means at huge cost to the taxpayer and huge profit to the pharmaceutical and medical equpment companies?

If that was me, I'd refuse it.

froth, I'm not going to define life - just that i find it immoral (can't think of another word at the minute) to compare any life to "taxpayer';s dollars", I have my own personal views on euthanasia etc. Sometimes refusing treatment or whatever can literally mean starving to death, a very unpleasant way to go, I hear.

Re: At Any Cost.

freakiness — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 03:24:30 GMT

@icyfroth wrote:
@bluecat*dancing wrote:
Your post number 7 says that you would receive palliative care.
Then why did you feel the need to explain it?

Post 6 might explain

I'd refuse palliative care also and have instructed my children accordingly.