topic Re: Who is more oppressed? in Community Spirit

Who is more oppressed?

the_bob_delusion — Mon, 09 Nov 2015 11:33:34 GMT

Go.

Re: Who is more oppressed?

johcaschro — Mon, 09 Nov 2015 12:21:06 GMT

Who is more oppressed?

Well, that's a difficult one isn't it.

One the one hand we have a woman who has the choice whether or not to go out dressed in minimalistic style, or to wear a more concealing form of dress.

She can freely make this choice without fear of censure from her male relatives, or if they do harrass her for her choice, she can tell them to get stuffed, it's none of their business, and she can expect not to have battery acid thrown in her face or to suffer other forms of violence from them for her decision.

On the other hand, we have someone (sex indeterminate) who has either chosen to, or has been pressured (by her male relatives and members of her religious institution), to live their public life dressed in a sack while wearing a mask which conceals their facial expressions and their identity.

Gee, sorry, Bob. I just can't decide on an answer to your question.

Re: Who is more oppressed?

joz*garage — Mon, 09 Nov 2015 13:21:30 GMT

Re: Who is more oppressed?

johcaschro — Mon, 09 Nov 2015 14:49:07 GMT

Some people do adapt to it and then go on to rationalise their existential situation as being normal.

I think this is called cognitive dissonance. (Bob might correct me if I'm mistaken)

Re: Who is more oppressed?

lyau086 — Mon, 09 Nov 2015 19:22:53 GMT

@johcaschro wrote:
Some people do adapt to it and then go on to rationalise their existential situation as being normal.

I think this is called cognitive dissonance. (Bob might correct me if I'm mistaken)

Don't hold your breath waiting for bob to reply.

Re: Who is more oppressed?

Anonymous — Mon, 09 Nov 2015 23:20:35 GMT

its about having a choice; freedom of

expression etc...

have you figured it out yet?

Re: Who is more oppressed?

lurker172602 — Mon, 09 Nov 2015 23:29:57 GMT

Don't make the mistake of assuming that every woman behind the veil has been forced there.

Recommended reading "From my Sisters Lips" by Na'ima B. Robert

Covered from head to toe with only her eyes visible, the sight of a Muslim woman on a western city street rarely fails to provoke a strong reaction. Feelings of shock, horror, repulsion, pity or even fear are not uncommon. But have you ever wondered who it is behind the veil and what makes her tick? Ever wondered what her life is really like and whether her dreams, hopes and aspirations differ from yours? From My Sisters' Lips offers a rare glimpse into the lives of a community of women, most of whom are converts to Islam, and invites you to share their joys, sorrows, convictions and faith.

When Na'ima B Robert abandoned her western lifestyle and embraced Islam six years ago, it was not a decision taken lightly. Yet soon after she took her first tentative steps towards covering, she felt empowered; no longer judged on physical appearances alone, no longer seeking the approval to feel beautiful - or using her looks to wield power over men - the experience effected her greatly. Before long she grew in confidence and courage. As she says, 'Something just clicked. I thought, "Good, don't look; don't compare me with your latest squeeze, don't try and guess my measurements - my body is my own business!"'
From My Sisters' Lips offers a glimpse into the lives of just some of the extraordinary women who, like herself, have chosen to live behind the veil. What emerges is a vivid and intimate portrait of a sisterhood; as they speak candidly and with conviction on a diverse range of subjects ranging from marriage to motherhood, stereotypes, submission and self-image, we hear the strong, proud voices of those who are seldom heard.

Re: Who is more oppressed?

Anonymous — Mon, 09 Nov 2015 23:48:39 GMT

Don't make the mistake of assuming that every woman behind the veil has been forced there.

yes, i did say its about having a choice

(same goes for women wearing bikinis

to the beach. not all are forced to do that)

speaking of not having a choice:

(since the op doesn't usually participate

in his discussions, i'm sure he won't mind)

Iran is hosting an international volleyball tournament only men will be allowed to watch

https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/11/04/iran-hosting-international-volleyball-tournament-only-men-will-be-allowed-watch

Since 2012 women in Iran have been prohibited from attending Male volleyball matches. TAKE ACTION below to put pressure the International Volleyball Federation (FIVB) to ban Iran from hosting games until they stop banning women.

https://www.hrw.org/watch4women

Re: Who is more oppressed?

moonflyte — Mon, 09 Nov 2015 23:53:18 GMT

One of the reasons for the Cronulla riot was that Aussie men were fed up with Lebanese and middle eastern men were calling the young women on the beach sluts. It had been going on for years.

Re: Who is more oppressed?

Anonymous — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 00:08:32 GMT

lurker - in some countries, women

still don't have a choice.

Under the Taliban the burqa was obligatory. While this is officially no longer the case, there remains intense social pressure to wear the burqa, and President Hamid Karzai has been accused by critics of compromising on women's rights in order to appease insurgents.

and there was this:

In 1923, Hoda Shaarawi made history when, while waiting for the press, she removed her veil in a symbolic act of liberation.

Re: Who is more oppressed?

daydream**believer — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 05:04:28 GMT

http://www.refinery29.com/2015/11/97131/iranian-actress-hijab-instagram

the woman of Iran dont have a choice. Their choice was taken away from them in 1979

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEsCt2ua8Bg

Re: Who is more oppressed?

the_great_she_elephant — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 05:23:56 GMT

Are we talking about Australia or worldwide? Most young women I know don't feel either oppressed by or bullied into wearing bikinis and I suspect the very small number of Australian Muslims who wear the burqa don't feel oppressed by or bullied into wearing it either. The real question, in both cases, is: has anybody actually bothered to ask them?

Re: Who is more oppressed?

joz*garage — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 05:43:27 GMT

http://www.buzzfeed.com/bryefajota/3-reasons-why-muslim-women-dont-think-theyre-opp-z4gg

Re: Who is more oppressed?

Anonymous — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 06:39:46 GMT

Are we talking about Australia or worldwide?

the scenario presented in the op appears

to be taking place in a free society - so

theoretically, none of the ladies (persons)

would be feeling oppressed ?

Re: Who is more oppressed?

johcaschro — Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:26:38 GMT

In a free society, people should be able to make their own choices about what they want to wear.

The problem with the niqab is that it a dress form which comes highly recommended by the male followers of a certain religion.

Oh, don't get me wrong. The male members of that religion would never wear it themselves, it would cover up their macho beards.

No, that identity-concealing fashion of dress is only imposed on the women. Impostition need not be physical; it can be social, coming from the society and even from relatives and friends. and it can also come from communty leaders or representatives of religion.

There is a certain pressure to conform, with certain penatlies to be paid for non-conformity, although here in Oz, we don't expect those penalties to be as drastic as they are in some other countries.

But sometimes we are shocked when they are.

I support freedom. freedom of expression and freedom of dress. I'm still having a little trouble supporting the right of any person to walk the street wearing a mask so I cannot see their face.

For those of you who support the right of people to do this, I'd ask you how you would feel if there were a religion which encouraged its male members to wear a mask in public and that the women were not encouraged to?

it's just an excercise in thinking about attitude. Well, how would you feel?

Re: Who is more oppressed?

johcaschro — Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:31:07 GMT

I'd ask you how you would feel if there were any cultural group in Australia which encouraged its male members to wear a mask in public and that the female members were not encouraged to?

Re: Who is more oppressed?

johcaschro — Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:55:54 GMT

Those of you who support the right of people (you can't be sexist about this, can you?) to walk the streets while wering a mask, must support the right of every person to do this, even if they are a member of a bikie gang or a policeman or a politician.

Imagine being arrested by a person whose face you couldn't see on the orders of a politician whose face you couldn't see and sentenced by a judge or magistrate whose face you couldn't see.

How would you feel?

Re: Who is more oppressed?

bignoter — Wed, 11 Nov 2015 22:51:50 GMT

@johcaschro wrote:
Those of you who support the right of people (you can't be sexist about this, can you?) to walk the streets while wering a mask, must support the right of every person to do this, even if they are a member of a bikie gang or a policeman or a politician.

Imagine being arrested by a person whose face you couldn't see on the orders of a politician whose face you couldn't see and sentenced by a judge or magistrate whose face you couldn't see.

How would you feel?

Great question.

Re: Who is more oppressed?

kilroy_is_here — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:23:52 GMT

Neither or both , it all depends on if they wear what they wear out of choice or out obligation

Re: Who is more oppressed?

the_great_she_elephant — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:00:38 GMT

@johcaschro wrote:
Those of you who support the right of people (you can't be sexist about this, can you?) to walk the streets while wering a mask, must support the right of every person to do this, even if they are a member of a bikie gang or a policeman or a politician.

Imagine being arrested by a person whose face you couldn't see on the orders of a politician whose face you couldn't see and sentenced by a judge or magistrate whose face you couldn't see.

How would you feel?

Do you seriously believe a Muslim woman who joined the police force would be permitted to walk the beat in a burqa?

come to think of it, I've never seen a policewoman - or a judge - wearing bikini either.