topic Re: What Defines A Terrorist? in Community Spirit

What Defines A Terrorist?

the_great_she_elephant — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 02:12:38 GMT

In Australia:

Two young men; both from non Anglo/Celtic migrant backgrounds.

Both have mental health issues.

Both believe they have the permission of their God to go out and kill innocent people.

One kills 6 and injures 27.

One kills 1 and injures 3.

One is labeled a terrorist and deemed by many to be representative of an entire cuture/religion.

One is deemed a deranged mass murder representative of no-one but himself.

So who is which - and why?

Re: What Defines A Terrorist?

davidc4430 — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 02:53:54 GMT

before 9/11 both would be called mentally disturbed.

no one calls martyn bryant a terrorist to my knowledge.

Re: What Defines A Terrorist?

not_for_sale — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 03:19:15 GMT

I think it is important to consider that they both claim that they believe they have the permission of their God to go out and kill innocent people.

But if the two were suspected of having mental health issues, they would have been assessed by psychiatrists on behalf of the Court. The findings and recommendations would have been considered to determine fitness for trial. Just because they both had MH issues doesn't mean that the findings and determinations will be the same. In lay language, one may have been found to be bad and the other mad, or both bad or both mad. How they are therefore labelled by the Court is likely to be very different to how they are labelled by the media and possibly the police. I guess it all narrows down to the charges in the end!

Re: What Defines A Terrorist?

tasfleur — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 03:35:50 GMT

"no one calls martyn bryant a terrorist to my knowledge"

Perhaps they should. From where I'm standing, anyone who points and fires a gun at another person, especially at a crowd of people minding their own business (and opens fire) deserves to be labelled as a terrorist. They are there to terrorise others after all, and certainly do.

When it comes to the so called 'religious' terrorists whose only want/need seems to be that of following their own religious delusions and determinations in a fatal manner, they are no different than serial killers en masse, and quite frankly, even more dangerous because they are totally brainwashed and dumbed down to zero in terms of civilisation and will never see the woods for the trees!

Re: What Defines A Terrorist?

davidc4430 — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 03:47:18 GMT

so far in australia we havent had many mass killings in the name of (insert cause here).

the worst is Bryant and does anyone actually know why he decided on that day to go on his killing spree?

there was a time when people who were detected as being mentally unstable and possibly a threat to themselves or the community were put into insititutions.

but our smart governments decided 'we can give these people a pill and they will be as right as rain', set them free so they can live peacfully out in the community.

and most of them do, as long as they take their pills.

but time and time again they stop taking their pills and 'lose it' and create havoc in the community and because we closed most of the facilities we used to put people in we now have no where to put them.

i read almost daily of the shortage of beds for mental patients in our system.

so when they get detected we say, look heres your pills, now be a good boy, take your pills and go away.

nearly every case of 'terror' attack we have had it turns out our protectors knew all about them but decided they were 'no threat'

maybe our experts need re educating on whats a threat?

and what do our protectors do when one of these known nutters decides todays the day, they shift blame.

scomo is saying its the communitys fault for not watching these people and reporting in.

good old fair dinkum scomo, its not his fault, its not his people being paid to keep tabs on the butters fault,

its our fault!

Re: What Defines A Terrorist?

davidc4430 — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 03:56:48 GMT

@tasfleur wrote:
"no one calls martyn bryant a terrorist to my knowledge"

Perhaps they should. From where I'm standing, anyone who points and fires a gun at another person, especially at a crowd of people minding their own business (and opens fire) deserves to be labelled as a terrorist. They are there to terrorise others after all, and certainly do.

When it comes to the so called 'religious' terrorists whose only want/need seems to be that of following their own religious delusions and determinations in a fatal manner, they are no different than serial killers en masse, and quite frankly, even more dangerous because they are totally brainwashed and dumbed down to zero in terms of civilisation and will never see the woods for the trees!

so where do we draw the line between mentally screwed up and terrorist?

the famer in the west who killed his entire family, mentally screwed up or terrorist?

guy who drove his car through a crowded sidewalk, mentally screwed up or terrorist.

like i said, prior to 9/11 they would all be called mentally screwed up but now its flip a coin stuff.

yep, anyone who takes a weapon and attacks people is a terrorist by definition, they terrorise peole and then kill some. or die trying.

but they also most likely fit into the mentally screwed up box too.

then you have the 'why you looking at me? i kill you!' types. most of us at some point have met one of those. are they serious or kidding? you just never know.

Re: What Defines A Terrorist?

tasfleur — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 04:15:58 GMT

Hi David ... there is really no way to determine between a genuine mentally ill person and whatever drives someone to terrorise another in my opinion if the effect is the same.

The only way to diagnose the problem is to look at the behaviour and the history driving it where possible and try to treat it.

There are individual 'mental issues' and then there are whole armies of people who could be similarly diagnosed as such all doing the same thing in the name of their 'god' or even whole cultures who identify with terrorising and killing as a matter of course ... or then again, too afraid to do anything else but follow like sheep .. fearing for their families and their own lives, but worse, fear of death via their religious convictions however insane.

It's the difference between psychopathic and sociopathic behaviours on a wide scale if you take North Korea as an example today, they are driven to either escape or follow the leader into oblivion, or just die trying.

Re: What Defines A Terrorist?

icyfroth — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 04:46:42 GMT

I guess it depends on whether they act in the name of Islam in the cause of anti - christianity

or in the case of Martin Bryant who is acting in the cause of anti - establishment.

Re: What Defines A Terrorist?

tasfleur — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:01:24 GMT

In the case of MB, I think he was totally mentally unstable and socially incompetent; so far lost in his inability to be responsible for his own life let alone considering anyone elses. I am of the opinion that he was seriously mentally disabled from way back in his childhood and his chronological development was halted long before he became an adult.

I don't think it was even about 'anti establishment' either. It was certain influences he wanted that led him to believe he was invincible and could do anything he wished, and did because he could; the trait of a psychopath without conscience or ability to understand remorse or consideration of life.

As for the religious lot, as far as I understand it, it isn't just people like ISIS who pose a threat to the world at large, there are many other so called "christian" sects, cults and brainwashed religious types who feebly follow and would do anything for their head honcho. History has always dictated that. I doubt it will change, even along the 'mainstream' path for what it is worth.

Re: What Defines A Terrorist?

tasfleur — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:06:20 GMT

I'd better bow out and go get dinner going or I'll be late.

Thanks for the discussion everyone, it's always going to be a complicated subject with the various issues and opinions it raises.

Re: What Defines A Terrorist?

not_for_sale — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:21:22 GMT

Australia's laws against terrorism are in Part 5.3 of the Criminal Code Act 1995 (Criminal Code).

A terrorist act is an act, or a threat to act, that meets both these criteria:

it intends to coerce or influence the public or any government by intimidation to advance a political, religious or ideological cause.

it causes one or more of the following:

death, serious harm or danger to a person
serious damage to property
a serious risk to the health or safety of the public
serious interference with, disruption to, or destruction of critical infrastructure such as a telecommunications or electricity network.

Re: What Defines A Terrorist?

icyfroth — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:28:33 GMT

yeah go cook dinner.

Re: What Defines A Terrorist?

kopenhagen5 — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 05:39:27 GMT

What Defines A Terrorist?

One whom incites terror.

But in reference to the OP, both motives are unclear.

However, factors lead educated assumptions toward pidgeonholing perpetrators based on current media images of a terrorist.

Re: What Defines A Terrorist?

tasfleur — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 06:02:46 GMT

"yeah go cook dinner" ....

Thanks Icy, dinner is now started; if there is time tomorrow I'll come back and rejoin the discussion ...

Re: What Defines A Terrorist?

springyzone — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 06:06:22 GMT

I think a true terrorist is someone who is motivated on behalf of an outside cause.

This can be hard to determine because I think when caught, some will plead mental health issues.

I don't think we should necessarily look at the outcomes because an attack (for whatever reason-on behalf of a cause or for personal mental health reasons) can have different results, depending on how competent the attack was, how well planned etc

So whether one person was killed or 100 does not necessarily determine if it was a terrorist act (in my opinion).

We need to listen to what the attackers themselves claim. There have been some who do claim to be acting on behalf of a cause, religious or otherwise. This is not to say the person may not also have mental health issues, I think sometimes a cause might appeal to such a person, make them feel accepted, part of a group.

But if they attack on behalf of a cause, then it is terrorist inspired.

If they attack for personal reasons, which i think has happened a few times in US, where disgruntled students with a grudge have stormed in to kill fellow students, then that may be mass murder but it is not terrorism per se. The idividual often ends up committing suicide at the end.

To me, terrorism is an attack performed on the general public for political or religious or idealogical reasons.

The farmers who wipe out their families etc, not terrorism. Mass murder for private reasons.

Re: What Defines A Terrorist?

tasfleur — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 06:14:49 GMT

I can agree with that too Springy, it's all encompassed reasoning.

Re: What Defines A Terrorist?

the_great_she_elephant — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 06:59:47 GMT

The young man being called a terrorist didn't claim anything. And since he's dead, he never will. So any motive ascribed to him can only be an assumption.

The young man who has not been labelled a terrorist did claim a motive - a religious one. He believed God had given him permission to do it.

Re: What Defines A Terrorist?

domino-710 — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 07:29:31 GMT

Define terrorist.

Both MURDERED.

Re: What Defines A Terrorist?

the_great_she_elephant — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 07:42:20 GMT

Both are murderers, are both terrorists?

Re: What Defines A Terrorist?

tezza2844 — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:29:23 GMT

@the_great_she_elephant wrote:
Both are murderers, are both terrorists?

All these are murderers, but how many are deemed terrorists and is religion the defining difference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Australia