topic Re: Victoria Police release CCTV footage in Community Spirit

Victoria Police release CCTV footage

davidc4430 — Tue, 11 Dec 2018 23:04:12 GMT

Victoria Police release CCTV footage of 'brutal' St Kilda assault that left two men unconscious

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-11/victoria-police-cctv-st-kilda-brutal-brawl-unconscious/10607528

ive said it before, i'm all for giving people a new life here in the best country in the world, but get caught doing this sort of stuff and its a one way ticket back to wherever you came from.

good riddence

Re: Victoria Police release CCTV footage

travlyn2012 — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 00:05:41 GMT

@davidc4430 wrote:

ive said it before, i'm all for giving people a new life here in the best country in the world, but get caught doing this sort of stuff and its a one way ticket back to wherever you came from.
good riddence

Agree with you David,

Some people have this distorted behaviour / thinking when they come to Australia.

They seem to be intent on living a life in this country that mirrors the country from which they came.

If this is what they want, kick em' out.

The laws in this country are in place to hand out some stiff gaol penalties.

Unfortunately, it is rare that the judicial system hands out a sentence that fits the crime.

I have mentioned before, that the guilty person, together with lawyers put forward pathetic excuses to somehow

justify or excuse their behaviour, and some beak, appears to go along with it.

The other issue is the gaols. It is getting to the point where there is no room to house the crims.

Building new gaols to house them, would be a solution, however, communities are reluctant to want a gaol in there vicinity.

Or the govt claims it is too expensive yet are prepared to spend $800 mil rebuilding Olympic stadium as in NSW.

Perhaps they should look at using Manus Island and Naru as a gaol.

My wifes family came to this country at the start of WW2, living in a country under a dictatorship.

They worked very hard, and made every attempt to assimilate.

This country took them in where they could live and raise a family in safety, without persecution,

abided by the laws and adopted the Aussie culture.

Re: Victoria Police release CCTV footage

lyndal1838 — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 01:50:14 GMT

Why would Naru or Manus Island want to take prisoners from Australia?

I am not sure that it would be legal to jail Australian prisoners in a foreign country either.

Re: Victoria Police release CCTV footage

go-tazz — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 03:38:41 GMT

What people want and what they get is completely different as the law will always favour the criminals,(they get

more benefits than a lot of other people and they even get paid to be there).

Laws aren't made to punish criminal behaviour but to just give them a holiday and **bleep** foot around so that

no one will sue because they feel hard done by,(those ones involved in the vicious assault will most likely get a

slap on the wrist and told not to do it again and then they wonder why they do it again),

Sooner or later these wont be just assaults as they get more brazen people will die,

The way this is going it will just become another city where this becomes part of life.

Taking people from war torn countries that only know violence and stick them into peaceful countries doesn't

make a lot of sense if those people don't want to obey that countries laws),

Re: Victoria Police release CCTV footage

travlyn2012 — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 03:58:11 GMT

Money would be one reason,

Manus & Naru has cost the taxpayer an average of a billion dollars a year for approx the last 5 years.

You mention about being legal, the crimes being committed are illegal and people are being hurt as a result.

Re: Victoria Police release CCTV footage

lyndal1838 — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 04:18:51 GMT

So you would be happy for say New Zealand to say they will be sending prisoners to Australia because they committed crimes in NZ and they don't want them any more.

Re: Victoria Police release CCTV footage

travlyn2012 — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 04:55:37 GMT

The gaols in this country are almost at maximum, this is partially why the courts are handing out lenient sentences.

Australia has closed down quite a number of detention centres within it own boarders, these could possibly been

revamped to house inmates.

The question you asked would not be practicle.

Perhaps you have a solution / suggestion to the increasing problem.

Re: Victoria Police release CCTV footage

joztamps — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 07:24:11 GMT

@travlyn2012 wrote:
The gaols in this country are almost at maximum, this is partially why the courts are handing out lenient sentences.
Australia has closed down quite a number of detention centres within it own boarders, these could possibly been
revamped to house inmates.

The question you asked would not be practicle.

Perhaps you have a solution / suggestion to the increasing problem.

Which courts, in which places, in which cases, are "handing out lenient sentences" and (again) which/which/which are doing it because "the gaols in this country are almost at maximum"?

Re: Victoria Police release CCTV footage

springyzone — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 10:08:28 GMT

I think anyone here who is not an Australian citizen and who commits a serious crime should face deportation.

I'm not 100% sure these gangs are doing what they do because things are that way in their original country. From what I have read, a lot of the usual restraints they would face have broken down. In fact i have sometimes read of mothers who have wanted to send their sons back to get them into a more disciplined way of life, away from bad influences here.

I think part of the problem here is a problem of culture. And also possibly the culture of poverty. Don't know if anyone else has read Ruby Payne's "A framework for understanding poverty', (which in my view is brilliant) but it outlines different world views, if you like.

Often those from generational poverty will see 'talking it over' etc as a sign of weakness.

So the current police procedures & softly, softly approach are going to be seen by some gang members as weakness and a licence to continue as they won't face much in the way of consequences.

We're not doing this country any favours if we allow thousands of people to settle here without a lot of help if they have radically different cultural backgrounds or way of life, are without basic English, have few or no skills that would allow them to get into the work force etc. It's setting them up for failure & stress.

Re: Victoria Police release CCTV footage

jetho1680 — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 13:58:14 GMT

The questions you posed would be an impossible task to answer, and believe that you are aware of that.

Everyone has different opinions and are entitled to have them.

For example, some may form an opinion that your questions are not ones of legitimacy. Others may say they were posted in an attempt of provocation. Others may have an opinion that it was a poor attempt to hide some other underlying issue.

Being that I am relatively new to the site, the only opinion I have formed at this point in time, is my first sentence, the more I read on this site, the more my opinions may change.

Re: Victoria Police release CCTV footage

joztamps — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 21:09:41 GMT

You're quite correct, everybody is entitled to their own opinions.

But when those opinions are expressed as wide-ranging statements purporting to be fact, totally unsupported by any evidence, it is hardly "provocative" to ask for that evidence.

And when it's not forthcoming, the value of the opinions are, to say the least, of limited value to anybody else considering or discussing the topic.

I might add that evidence of sentencing guidelines and outcomes is certainly available for Victorian higher-level criminal courts if you care to look for it and I would be surprised if this were not also the case in other States.

I suspect, however, that you will look in vain for any evidence whatever of leniency in sentencing because jails are overcrowded.

Although you might find very occasional cases where pre-trial bail is granted for that reason, in situations where it might not otherwise have been granted.

Re: Victoria Police release CCTV footage

shoppingbag* — Thu, 13 Dec 2018 00:09:43 GMT

You don't have many rights in this country until you break the law.

Re: Victoria Police release CCTV footage

joztamps — Thu, 13 Dec 2018 02:08:37 GMT

You have certain rights after it's alleged that you broke vthe law.

But you have very few rights after a court finds that you did break the law.

Re: Victoria Police release CCTV footage

travlyn2012 — Thu, 13 Dec 2018 21:14:12 GMT

When I made mention of sentences due to over population, I said partially,

the same as sentences are partially given for other reasons.

Victorian Attorney General Martin Pakula, (he may now be the former after the recent election, I don't reside in Vic)

2017 Makes statement that Victorians are sick and tired of offenders being handed lenient sentences, and will be legislating to ensure that there are a number of offences that fall into the correction order category that will no longer be an option,

and made mention of the current prison population status, and mentions about an extra 700 beds for a Vic prison.

People convicted of certain crimes against children, such priests, teachers and other community leaders will no longer be able to claim they are of "good character" when seeking more lenient sentences in Victorian courts.

2017 Greg Davies The Victims of Crime Commissioner makes statement, that sentencing in Victoria had “lost its way”.

2018 John Pesutto shadow AG

Announces plans to introduce mandatory sentences for certain crimes.

2016-2017 A case that ended in the high court,

A sentence was given, and the Ddp appeals to the Court of appeal, on grounds of it being inadequate. The court of appeal

agrees and said that judges should adjust sentences upwards, however the court claimed it was constrained by current sentencing practices and dismissed the appeal.

Ddp goes to the high court and in short they reached a conclusion that current sentences were inadequate and the Court of appeals had placed too much weight on current sentencing practices.

Vic govt media release in mid 2018 by the then corrections minister said that are slowly getting a handle

on the prisons and sentencing. If this is true, it is a step in the right direction.

Personal

In the past 12 months or so, a distant relative had been before the courts and has a history of offences, some violent.

He was given an ICO (intensive corrections order) if he broke it he would be facing a gaol term.

In less than 6 months, he was arrested and charged with a number of offenses, including assault and having a stun gun.

He was held without bail, due to the ICO, and only in the past couple of months he receives a sentence for his crimes.

The gaol he was originally held, was one that had been identified as crowded, and was moved to other that was around another 100 or so ks away. during sentencing his lawyer makes reference to this, and how it has effected his family, having small children,

who have no means of travel to visit him.

This was not the full extent of the lawyers summary, he also threw in the usual excuses.

What does he get, another good behaviour bond, and no action regarding him breaking the ICO and walks out the door.

Frankly, he should have gone to gaol, I have lost count how many chances he has had.

Earlier this year. I attended a trial and a sentencing hearing. One of my sons was attacked by two assailants

about 20 or 22 months prior. Why, because they wanted to steal his car while he was at an intersection in the evening.

He sustained a lot of physical injures, was strangled to the point of almost passing out and ligature marks were

still visible for months.

Both assailants were arrested within a couple of days, and held without bail due to criminal history,

on the first day of the trial one pleads guilty and the other not guilty.

The trial lasted 9 days, and the jury returns with a guilty verdict. A couple of weeks after the trial, the supreme court grants bail to the one who pleaded guilty, they ended up doing a runner and failed to appear in court on the sentencing date which

was about 3 months after the trial.

At the sentencing hearing past criminal history is read of the one still in custody, has a history of violent crimes,

against both men & women while committing crimes, some being home invasions, carjacking and robbery.

His lawyers make the usual excuses, coming from a broken home, drug addiction, not seeing his young daughter and that he is making every effort to turn his life around. He was facing a maximum of 18 years because of the numerous charges laid.

(not that any of us were expecting he would get that)

Judge sentences him to 4.5 years, with time served.

I regard this to be lenient for a person with such violent a history and the crimes he committed against my son.

The person who skipped bail was caught a while later while in the process of committing another crime.

Thanks to the supreme court and lawyers.

Within a couple of months of the arrests, my son had received a number of threats of violence if he gave evidence,

these were both verbally and by text, (when the crime happened his phone and wallet were also taken, we replaced the phone

and never gave it any thought about the phone number and got a new sim card and activated the number again.

We then changed the number, and the police were unable to identify who was sending the threats.

We had a couple of unusual events happen at home, and had to beef up security, alarms and surveillance cameras.

We were very concerned, we all made a decision that there was need to relocate our son and his girlfriend

as a safety precaution.

We move them to a country area hundreds of ks away, he had already lost his job and was not well enough to work.

He has had no contact with any of the friends he had. My wife and I have kept his where abouts from most of our own friends,

and just say that he is in a country area and is ok.

Our son recovered from most of the physical damage, however one eye has permanent damage.

The psychological damage has been a long journey for him. In the past 6 months he has improved greatly, but still

has some problems, it is extremely rare that he will go out of a night, and takes a lot of precautions.

I have a couple of close friends who are Lawyers, It was only last night that I was out with one of them who

is a criminal defence lawyer. He and I have opposing opinions on the state of crime and sentences imposed, our differences can sometimes be heated, even though were are very close friends. I want them in gaol and his job is to use all legal means to get them off, or the lowest possible sentence.

Many a time it is part of our chats. Bail, often he says that it will be granted due to the over population, his own words are,

they have no where to put them, and strict conditions are usually imposed.

I am dumb founded by some sentences that his clients get. He will often say the same thing, making reference to the prison population and how strained it is. He has said that he prefers certain Judges or Magistrates as some aren't as tough as others,

and most Lawyers will have their favorites.

I believe that the wheels of justice have more that one broken spoke.

I have said enough on this topic !

Re: Victoria Police release CCTV footage

springyzone — Thu, 13 Dec 2018 21:44:28 GMT

I feel for you & your family.

What makes me angry is that your son is the one who has lost his job, had to relocate etc, yet he is the innocent party.

I think that most people here in Victoria at least believe the wheels have come off the justice machine. Okay, we're not all lawyers so i suppose you could say we're not 'experts'.

But I know of one man-and I'll call him a man because he is aged about 20/21 now, who, several years back, attended the primary school where I used to work. I had him in some of my classes and can still recall him as he had attitude even then.

Saw him in a yahoo online news report a year or so back. He had close to 300 convictions & they weren't all for petty little things either, they included home invasions, robbing people at gunpoint etc

His lawyers trotted out the same, tired old excuses-traumatic childhood as he was a refugee, was an ice addict so it wasn't his fault, he didn't know what he was doing and had been tired etc

Some people even raised a petition that he had to be allowed to stay in Australia. He & his lawyers argued he should be tried as a minor (even though he was about 19 when he committed his latest crimes with gun etc).

So let's look at that. Almost 300 convictions. By the age of 19.

When is enough, enough?

I don't know about anyone else but I am sick of reading excuses. Drug addiction is no excuse, it should just lead to a longer conviction, it makes the crime worse, more unpredictable.

These people with multiple convictions are not 'trying to turn their life around'. Not usually. Until such people face deportation or stiff sentences that also hit them or their families in the hip pocket, they will continue on their merry way.

Re: Victoria Police release CCTV footage

travlyn2012 — Thu, 13 Dec 2018 23:10:22 GMT

Springy,

It is bull$hit how the system is failing.

I agree with you 100% and what you posted is another example that shows the failings of the system.

My sons assailants were in their mid 30s. I was shocked when they read out his criminal history,

and the pathetic sentences he had been give on prior convictions, most of a violent nature, dating back to 18 years of age.

I was shocked when the supreme court granted bail, and then the person runs.

Where is the accountability.

I find it offensive when a criminal is allowed to use the being of "good character" in an attempt to gain a lenient sentence.

Persons of good character are not normally standing in front of judge waiting to be sentenced for a crime.

Our son, my wife, our 3 older sons and myself all become victims late one night when the police called.

Just as thousands or hundreds of thousands have become.

Re: Victoria Police release CCTV footage

jetho1680 — Fri, 14 Dec 2018 01:25:28 GMT

Springyzone

In your post you said "Okay, we're not all lawyers so i suppose you could say we're not 'experts'."

I am neither a Lawyer or an expert.

I consider myself to have common sense, and that is all that is required for someone to see the injustices that are taking place.

The powers that be, must adopt a different approach to crime and punishment, and if means doing what you suggest, deportation or stiff sentences, I am all for it.

Re: Victoria Police release CCTV footage

jetho1680 — Fri, 14 Dec 2018 01:43:50 GMT

Travlyn,

I was impacted by your sons horrendous experience, together with the impact it would have had on your family.

I trust that you will not be offended, when I say, that all of you will become another statistic on a piece of paper, and that is not how it should be.

Re: Victoria Police release CCTV footage

*kazumi* — Wed, 19 Dec 2018 06:24:49 GMT

Did they catch the assailants? Unless they did, nobody knows if they are migrants or born here. If the are born here or arrived here as very small children they are product of our society. I do hope they get them and they get jail time, just as any other Australian criminal would; there should NEVER be different punishment for the same crime for different people. In any case, because the footage did not show what happened beforehand, does not mean that the attack was not in some way provoked. Who knows what happened around the corner, or earlier that night .