topic Re: Virgin Airlines ? any ideas ? in Community Spirit

Virgin Airlines ? any ideas ?

rogevibe — Thu, 16 Apr 2020 00:49:32 GMT

Keeping in mind:

Virgin Airlines is basically worthless as per the market price of the holding company that owns it: Virgin Australia Holdings LTD

share price is less than 1 cent ,

compared with Qantas being valued 355x more at $3.55 per share

What about dividends ? none paid , appears never has.

Also a major share holder HNA Group (19.82%) is being nationalised by "CHINA INC" who have the expressed objective of selling all airline assets which would include Virgin Australia Holdings

Somewhat shakey some might say.

so what about worthiness of support , the history ?

Questions of interest .. how did a new airline establish itself after a pioneering Australian airline company on home ground ( Ansett Airways/ Ansett Australia) fail dismally ?

A solution that will placate everyone and result in financially viable trading for all airlines based here is in everyones interest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Australia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Australia_Holdings

https://www.bing.com/search?q=Virgin+Australia+holdings+LTD&FORM=ANCMS9&PC=U531

https://www.bing.com/search?q=qantas+shares&FORM=AWRE

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-19/china-said-to-near-takeover-of-hna-group-as-virus-hits-business

Re: Virgin Airlines ? any ideas ?

davidc4430 — Thu, 16 Apr 2020 05:36:56 GMT

my view is

australia cant support 2 airlines no matter how many experts say 'we need 2 airlines'

australians just dont fly enough!

virgin arnt the first airline to try and fail to make it here.

quantas has the market lead and they arnt giving that up anytime soon

virgin arnt even an aussie company! bail them out? let their corporate headqaurters bail them out.

they were strugging to survive before the C19 virus came, its just sped the death up.

it was only a few years ago quantas was on its knees, no govt bail outs for them then.

its no different to the auto industry, we dont buy enough aussie made cars to support an industry, so the industry was ended.

i was in favor of support for holden, it was an aussie business building aussie cars (as an arm of an american company)

virgin are one of the companys outed paying little or no taxes in australia.

now they want me to bail em out?

Re: Virgin Airlines ? any ideas ?

domino-710 — Thu, 16 Apr 2020 05:44:02 GMT

Get it right boys :

There were 4.60 million passengers carried on Australian domestic commercial aviation (including charter operations) in February 2020, a decrease of 2.2 per cent on February 2019. 4.36 million passengers were carried on RPT flights in February 2020, a decrease of 3.0 per cent on February 2019.

We need only - 1 Carrier - hello.

This is Feb 2020.

Bad time for flying.

What about a good time.

Re: Virgin Airlines ? any ideas ?

tasfleur — Thu, 16 Apr 2020 05:51:53 GMT

Looks like Virgin Airlines is about to collapse, so you are right about that Rogespeed. I really don't know how Australia will cope with only one airline though, I'm not sure it will/can.

I'd like to hear your ideas on it though.

Re: Virgin Airlines ? any ideas ?

davidc4430 — Thu, 16 Apr 2020 06:34:00 GMT

all those who are willing to use tax payer money to prop up a non profitable company (any company) for ever, please raise your hand?

or if not forever, how long and how much tax payer money?

remember thousands of companys go bust every year because they cant compete.

your decision could cost billions of $

Re: Virgin Airlines ? any ideas ?

domino-710 — Thu, 16 Apr 2020 07:06:48 GMT

It would be interesting to know - when the whinger last paid any tax.

Re: Virgin Airlines ? any ideas ?

rogevibe — Thu, 16 Apr 2020 12:15:43 GMT

@davidc4430 wrote:
my view is
australia cant support 2 airlines no matter how many experts say 'we need 2 airlines'

australians just dont fly enough!

virgin arnt the first airline to try and fail to make it here.

quantas has the market lead and they arnt giving that up anytime soon

virgin arnt even an aussie company! bail them out? let their corporate headqaurters bail them out.
they were strugging to survive before the C19 virus came, its just sped the death up.

it was only a few years ago quantas was on its knees, no govt bail outs for them then.

its no different to the auto industry, we dont buy enough aussie made cars to support an industry, so the industry was ended.

i was in favor of support for holden, it was an aussie business building aussie cars (as an arm of an american company)

virgin are one of the companys outed paying little or no taxes in australia.
now they want me to bail em out?

I agree in that looking at their origins, seems a cosy solution for the Govt of the day to be favourable in order to enable a viable multinational carrier which would enhance the image of Australia being a true blue free enterprise capitalist country . This was a time when the Australian system of direct Govt control over some industries ( the nineties era) was falling from favour with global commerce

Re: Virgin Airlines ? any ideas ?

rogevibe — Thu, 16 Apr 2020 12:26:30 GMT

@domino-710 wrote:
Get it right boys :

There were 4.60 million passengers carried on Australian domestic commercial aviation (including charter operations) in February 2020, a decrease of 2.2 per cent on February 2019. 4.36 million passengers were carried on RPT flights in February 2020, a decrease of 3.0 per cent on February 2019.

We need only - 1 Carrier - hello.

This is Feb 2020.

Bad time for flying.

What about a good time.

So what went wrong with Virgin Australia Airlines ?

Re: Virgin Airlines ? any ideas ?

rogevibe — Thu, 16 Apr 2020 12:39:39 GMT

@tasfleur wrote:
Looks like Virgin Airlines is about to collapse, so you are right about that Rogespeed. I really don't know how Australia will cope with only one airline though, I'm not sure it will/can.

I'd like to hear your ideas on it though.

seems someone has put out a lifeline for now

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/virgin-australia-to-resume-flying-minimal-domestic-schedule-saving-jobs/ar-BB12Igfc?ocid=msedgdhp

3 of the 5 owner's are definitively venture capitalist minded - 20% stake might be up for takers soon and at 1 cent a share maybe our Govt might invest with a chair on the board in order to better support on behalf of the people if they decide to pursue a 2 airline service

Can always sell the stake some time later at most likely a "poseidon" capital gain and so help refund the economy

https://www.stewartinvestors.com/globalassets/articles/lessons-from-the-past/the-poseidon-adventure/the-poseidon-adventure.pdf

Re: Virgin Airlines ? any ideas ?

davewil1964 — Thu, 16 Apr 2020 12:41:27 GMT

@rogevibe wrote:
@domino-710 wrote:
Get it right boys :

There were 4.60 million passengers carried on Australian domestic commercial aviation (including charter operations) in February 2020, a decrease of 2.2 per cent on February 2019. 4.36 million passengers were carried on RPT flights in February 2020, a decrease of 3.0 per cent on February 2019.

We need only - 1 Carrier - hello.

This is Feb 2020.

Bad time for flying.

What about a good time.
So what went wrong with Virgin Australia Airlines ?

They didn't have a viable business model.

Given that they are around 80% foreign owned, not including how many foreign people (as opposed to corporations) own the few shares available to the public, why would any Government want to bail them out?

The government is already stretched trying to provide money to people in Australia who need to eat, pay rent or mortgages. Why would anybody suggest they should support foreign companies? Even ScoMo wouldn't be game to do that. I hope.

Re: Virgin Airlines ? any ideas ?

rogevibe — Thu, 16 Apr 2020 12:48:43 GMT

@davidc4430 wrote:
all those who are willing to use tax payer money to prop up a non profitable company (any company) for ever, please raise your hand?

or if not forever, how long and how much tax payer money?

remember thousands of companys go bust every year because they cant compete.

your decision could cost billions of $

I would like to know what the owners have in it to justify ownership - Eithad Airways , Singapore Airlines , Nanshan Group , NHA Group, Virgin Group

Re: Virgin Airlines ? any ideas ?

rogevibe — Thu, 16 Apr 2020 13:11:56 GMT

@davewil1964 wrote:
@rogevibe wrote:
@domino-710 wrote:
Get it right boys :

There were 4.60 million passengers carried on Australian domestic commercial aviation (including charter operations) in February 2020, a decrease of 2.2 per cent on February 2019. 4.36 million passengers were carried on RPT flights in February 2020, a decrease of 3.0 per cent on February 2019.

We need only - 1 Carrier - hello.

This is Feb 2020.

Bad time for flying.

What about a good time.
So what went wrong with Virgin Australia Airlines ?
They didn't have a viable business model.

Given that they are around 80% foreign owned, not including how many foreign people (as opposed to corporations) own the few shares available to the public, why would any Government want to bail them out?

The government is already stretched trying to provide money to people in Australia who need to eat, pay rent or mortgages. Why would anybody suggest they should support foreign companies? Even ScoMo wouldn't be game to do that. I hope.

Actually is at least 94% foreign owned

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Australia_Holdings

The holding company 100% owns the airline service called Virgin Australia Airlines . . The holding company handles the finance and accounting etc - a company full of bean counters only .

5 interests own shares in the holding company totaling about 94% although about 6% seems unaccounted for in the wiki info ( that might be the public share holdings you mentioned)

I suspect will survive but the perception of tax issues might have to be addressed - with hopefully restructuring of Australian commercial society in progress will financially ambiguous companies still be welcome here ?

https://www.michaelwest.com.au/virgin-australia-holdings-limited-2019/

Re: Virgin Airlines ? any ideas ?

rogevibe — Thu, 16 Apr 2020 13:13:57 GMT

@domino-710 wrote:
It would be interesting to know - when the whinger last paid any tax.

Wondering exactly who you are referring to ?

Re: Virgin Airlines ? any ideas ?

rogevibe — Fri, 17 Apr 2020 00:41:43 GMT

@davewil1964 wrote:
@rogevibe wrote:
@domino-710 wrote:
Get it right boys :

There were 4.60 million passengers carried on Australian domestic commercial aviation (including charter operations) in February 2020, a decrease of 2.2 per cent on February 2019. 4.36 million passengers were carried on RPT flights in February 2020, a decrease of 3.0 per cent on February 2019.

We need only - 1 Carrier - hello.

This is Feb 2020.

Bad time for flying.

What about a good time.
So what went wrong with Virgin Australia Airlines ?
They didn't have a viable business model.

Given that they are around 80% foreign owned, not including how many foreign people (as opposed to corporations) own the few shares available to the public, why would any Government want to bail them out?

The government is already stretched trying to provide money to people in Australia who need to eat, pay rent or mortgages. Why would anybody suggest they should support foreign companies? Even ScoMo wouldn't be game to do that. I hope.

well they employ alot of people and i suppose at least pay payroll tax ? - but i find disturbing a company that chronically does not realise an after tax profit , kind of has the appearance of excessive tax minimisation . Maybe is run as a charity ?

Re: Virgin Airlines ? any ideas ?

the_great_she_elephant — Fri, 17 Apr 2020 01:01:00 GMT

Has anyone given any thought to what ticket prices may look like in a few years time if Qantas has no competition.

Re: Virgin Airlines ? any ideas ?

rogevibe — Fri, 17 Apr 2020 01:05:40 GMT

@rogevibe wrote:
@davewil1964 wrote:
@rogevibe wrote:
@domino-710 wrote:
Get it right boys :

There were 4.60 million passengers carried on Australian domestic commercial aviation (including charter operations) in February 2020, a decrease of 2.2 per cent on February 2019. 4.36 million passengers were carried on RPT flights in February 2020, a decrease of 3.0 per cent on February 2019.

We need only - 1 Carrier - hello.

This is Feb 2020.

Bad time for flying.

What about a good time.
So what went wrong with Virgin Australia Airlines ?
They didn't have a viable business model.

Given that they are around 80% foreign owned, not including how many foreign people (as opposed to corporations) own the few shares available to the public, why would any Government want to bail them out?

The government is already stretched trying to provide money to people in Australia who need to eat, pay rent or mortgages. Why would anybody suggest they should support foreign companies? Even ScoMo wouldn't be game to do that. I hope.
well they employ alot of people and i suppose at least pay payroll tax ? - but i find disturbing a company that chronically does not realise an after tax profit , kind of has the appearance of excessive tax minimisation . Maybe is run as a charity ?

seems 2018/19 net profit was $54,000,000 but did they pay tax on this or was it offset by " future profits " ( i kid you not ) or was this channelled through an "offshore admin office" ? Nothing illegal here but odd , but Virgin is not the only one

Qantas takes advantage of our Governments tax concession of writing off current losses against , wait for it, crystal ball derived "future profits, indefinately" - sort of inspires me to look into the study of corporate accountancy to pine away current social-isolation

Well if that is what it takes to be competitive - obviously all carriers globally have more or less the same business structure

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/higher-airfares-boost-virgin-australia-s-profit-as-international-woes-grow-20190212-p50xdf.html

Paragraph 6 :

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-14/why-many-big-companies-dont-pay-corporate-tax/9443840

Re: Virgin Airlines ? any ideas ?

rogevibe — Fri, 17 Apr 2020 01:17:09 GMT

Jet fuel ( basically kero) is a major running cost , and has crashed to about US 25 c per litre + AU 3 cents excise - so this should help the airlines

https://www.iata.org/en/publications/economics/fuel-monitor/

https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Excise-and-excise-equivalent-goods/Fuel-excise/Excise-rates-for-fuel/

https://www.convertunits.com/from/bbl/to/liter

Re: Virgin Airlines ? any ideas ?

rogevibe — Fri, 17 Apr 2020 01:37:35 GMT

Update

Our Govt has donated $165,000,000 to enable both Qantas and Virgin Airlines to continue domestic services with assured financial viability

Personally I think is a good idea - this is a crisis situation and hopefully in the end Australia will emerge on it commercial feet and running with renewed vigour - with improvements permanent.

scroll down the page

https://www.convertunits.com/from/bbl/to/liter

I sort of admire Virgin Airlines for it's panache - I have found to be quite interesting

Re: Virgin Airlines ? any ideas ?

ambercat16 — Fri, 17 Apr 2020 02:13:27 GMT

@the_great_she_elephant wrote:
Has anyone given any thought to what ticket prices may look like in a few years time if Qantas has no competition.

Could keep them honest to a degree by allowing international airlines to carry domestic passengers within Australia?

Re: Virgin Airlines ? any ideas ?

rogevibe — Fri, 17 Apr 2020 02:47:29 GMT

@ambercat16 wrote:
@the_great_she_elephant wrote:
Has anyone given any thought to what ticket prices may look like in a few years time if Qantas has no competition.
Could keep them honest to a degree by allowing international airlines to carry domestic passengers within Australia?

A bit like lifting the local auto industry by allowing in foreign cars unfettered