topic Re: Fake bids in Buying

Fake bids

flyinfinns77 — Thu, 03 Mar 2022 20:49:01 GMT

So does ebay do anything about fake bids? I recently bid on an item, only to be outbid on the last day. No harm in that, all good.

However the same item came up from the same seller about 2 weeks later. No doubt its the same item and not a duplicate (a very uncommon plastic model kit).

When I looked into it, the bidder that beat me has only ever bid on items from this one seller, clearly its the seller trying to drive the bids up. I have no issue with a reserve being set but this is just plain dishonest.

Re: Fake bids

papermoon.lady — Thu, 03 Mar 2022 21:02:08 GMT

Shill bidding policy | eBay

Re: Fake bids

springyzone — Thu, 03 Mar 2022 23:40:20 GMT

That definitely sounds like it could be shill bidding.

And not very skillfully done either if the shill bidder has only ever bid on the seller's items and isn't buying them after winning.

If you suspect shill bidding, follow papermoon's link and definitely report it with item number and other details etc

Re: Fake bids

4channel — Mon, 07 Mar 2022 05:11:20 GMT

Even though the term is shill bidding, it does mislead somewhat. Usually a shill is person who works for someone else whilst hiding their true agenda. Online forums are riddled with them. But they are shills to influence etc., not to use for bidding. Anyway, a sockpuppet is a better term as some sellers have sockpuppet IDs (extra IDs created by the seller) to drive up their own bids. Sometimes they will win their own item lol.

Re: Fake bids

repentatleisure1952 — Mon, 07 Mar 2022 06:12:24 GMT

@4channel wrote:
@4channel wrote: Anyway, a sockpuppet is a better term as some sellers have sockpuppet IDs (extra IDs created by the seller) to drive up their own bids.
How do you know this?

Re: Fake bids

imastawka — Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:40:26 GMT

@4channel wrote:
Even though the term is shill bidding, it does mislead somewhat. Usually a shill is person who works for someone else whilst hiding their true agenda. Online forums are riddled with them. But they are shills to influence etc., not to use for bidding. Anyway, a sockpuppet is a better term as some sellers have sockpuppet IDs (extra IDs created by the seller) to drive up their own bids. Sometimes they will win their own item lol.

Ebay disagrees with your terminology

Shill bidding policy | eBay

Sock puppets are used on the forums - something you are well aware of.

Re: Fake bids

*sons_and_daughters* — Mon, 07 Mar 2022 10:27:20 GMT

We made sock puppets in the Christmas holidays one year as kids. Mum glued the eyes (buttons) on, we wanted them sewed on. They would have been so much better if the buttons had been sewn on! Not sure what these have to do with ebay though.

Re: Fake bids

davewil1964 — Mon, 07 Mar 2022 10:49:55 GMT

Probably from experience.

Re: Fake bids

4channel — Mon, 07 Mar 2022 12:00:01 GMT

-- -- -- --

@4channel wrote:

Even though the term is shill bidding, it does mislead somewhat. Usually a shill is person who works for someone else whilst hiding their true agenda. Online forums are riddled with them. But they are shills to influence etc., not to use for bidding. Anyway, a sockpuppet is a better term as some sellers have sockpuppet IDs (extra IDs created by the seller) to drive up their own bids. Sometimes they will win their own item lol.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@imastawka wrOte:

Ebay disagrees with your terminology

Shill bidding policy | eBay

Sock puppets are used on the forums - something you are well aware of.

----------------------------------------------------------

Reply, hmmm. Hello imastawka?

Yes, the terminology of eBay differs from mine. But in actuality that is what a sockpuppet is. The proper term for a shill often describes someone who works for someone else. if a seller employs or engages parties other than himself / herself to bump up bids then those people employed / engaged are shills.

Yes myself and a few others are aware of forum the sock puppets.

Re: Fake bids

countessalmirena — Mon, 07 Mar 2022 13:31:52 GMT

Definitions are something of a passion of mine, in the interests of which I am compelled to swoop in and post, in order to clarify.

(I cannot stand by and see the English language abused with incorrect definitions. My red correcting pen is extended; I flourish it in an Italianate duelling manner and I am standing en garde.)

From the complete OED:

sock, n.1

sock puppet n. originally U.S. a simple puppet made from a sock that is fitted over and moved by the hand and fingers; (also figurative) a person whose actions are controlled by another; a minion.

I could link to the entry, but it's a paid subscription. Thankfully, I don't need to do that, as the Oxford Dictionary also has an online free dictionary - not as extensive and without all of the etymological details (so... much less fun for me), but with an up-to-date definition of this very term sock puppet.

sock puppet

NOUN

2. A false online identity, typically created by a person or group
in order to promote their own opinions or views.

Link is here: https://www.lexico.com/definition/sock_puppet

A sock puppet is either completely under the control of another person whose interests they serve, or an invented identity who - of course - serves the interests of its creator.

Let us contrast that with the definition of a shill.

From the complete OED:

shill, n.

Etymology: Perhaps abbreviation of SHILLABER n.

slang (chiefly North American).

A decoy or accomplice, esp. one posing as an enthusiastic or successful customer to encourage other buyers, gamblers, etc.

... and the Oxford/Lexico definition is:

shill

NOUN
informal North American

1. An accomplice of a confidence trickster or swindler who poses
as a genuine customer to entice or encourage others.

Link is here: https://www.lexico.com/definition/shill

A shill is therefore part of a con to convince the mark to buy into a fraud, or to pay more for an item than it is worth.

The term shill can also be used to describe someone who endorses a product or policy or company without being disinterested - someone who is paid by the company/organisation/government to give a seemingly impartial endorsement. But that person is not a minion or invented character; the person is real but is being paid or rewarded for their endorsement.

4channel, you might confuse the two terms because of this secondary definition of shill, but I'll explain why they are different.

Let's entertain the idea of a "shill" posting on these boards. Such a poster would presumably endorse and praise eBay, without necessarily having any actual experience as a buyer or seller. Oh, perhaps as a buyer, since there are so many, and it doesn't involve a blood oath or anything of that sort... but the primary reason for that poster posting on these boards and on social media and wherever praise for eBay might bring in more business would be because that poster is paid for the "work". Inane positive endorsement would be key.

Is there anyone on these boards who is posting in that fashion? I don't know. Most people posting here are quite frank about the negatives of eBay, as well as about the positives (with caveats) of eBay IF one knows how to navigate its policies. It would actually be against eBay's own policies to have this sort of shill - and to be honest, I doubt there are enough eBay users visiting the boards to be influenced by it even if there were.

To clarify, if someone were being paid by eBay to post here, in order to endorse eBay in some fashion, they would ipso facto be a paid employee of eBay's. See the eBay employee trading and community content policy:

❝When eBay employees submit community content as members, not as employees, they need to identify themselves as eBay employees and state that the content reflects their personal views and isn't written on behalf of eBay.❞

If you seriously believe that there are employees of eBay's/people paid by eBay posting on these boards without revealing that they are employees, that is a serious matter and you should take strong action. I will frankly tell you that I don't think there are. I may be wrong; I'm not omnipotent any more than anyone else here.

A sock puppet, by contrast, is highly unlikely to have eBay's interests guiding its actions. (Except in the ludicrous event of a shill being paid by eBay but also acting in his/her own interests by creating sock puppet IDs.)

A sock puppet would post, pretending to be another person, probably agreeing with its creator's posts or propping up its arguments with pseudo-support and anecdotes. Or... a sock puppet might be created in order to vote for its creator's offerings in the music or caption thread, as I understand has actually happened. In some instances, a sock puppet may be created by its user purely in order to cause mischief - posting in an aggressive or baiting fashion, targeting people with whom its creator disagrees, while leaving the creator's user ID untainted by the actions of the sock puppet in the eyes of the board community.

Are there people on these boards who do that? Unfortunately... yes. More than one individual has been caught out, as I understand it.

A sock puppet is not the same as a posting ID. A posting ID is created to protect the user from eBay users deliberately targeting the poster (esp. if the poster is a seller) in a manner that is against eBay's own policies. A posting ID is also not used to prop up arguments or posts by its creator's other eBay ID/s, and if the other eBay ID/s do post, as a rule it's by mistake, not as an attempt to create an illusion of more support for a particular point or particular stance.

BUT... (are you beginning to think "Why did I ever open this shill/sock puppet can of worms in the first place? Is she ever going to end this post?") shill on eBay has a definition based upon the first entry of the Oxford/Lexico definition. We're talking about shill bidding, and eBay has defined this in its Shill bidding policy:

❝Shill bidding is when sellers—or someone they know—place a bid on their item to drive the price up and create an artificial bidding war.❞

This definition is legitimised even further by its very specific own entry in dictionaries such as Collins and Macmillans.

shill bidding
in British English

NOUN

(on an online auction) the illegal practice of a seller or a seller’s acquaintances placing bids on his or her goods in order to drive up the price

Link: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/shill-bidding

... To clinch the difference between these two terms, Collins Dictionary also defines sock puppet in the sense of a forum or similar, not as a seller's alternative identity to drive up the price of his/her items:

sock puppet
in British English

NOUN

2. an extra online identity created by a member of a discussion forum, etc, to agree with opinions submitted under his or her usual online name

Link: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/sock-puppet

I throw into this post the word pautener, for reasons that may be clear from the remainder of the post.

a1500 (▸?c1450) Merlin 268 (MED) ❝A full fell pawtener [Fr. potouner] is he that twies this day thus hath yow smyten to grounde.❞

Foreign word, ✓
Literary reference, ✓
Historical reference, ✓
Fancy word. ✓

This has been a Fancy Foreign Historical Literary (FanFoHisLit)® post.

Re: Fake bids

imastawka — Mon, 07 Mar 2022 13:35:04 GMT

SOCK PUPPET | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary -

on the internet, a false identity (= a name and character) created by someone in order to express views that they want to have expressed, for example praise or support for a particular organization or person:

SHILL | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary -

Someone who helps another person to persuade people to buy something, especially by pretending to be a satisfied customer

Re: Fake bids

4channel — Mon, 07 Mar 2022 15:38:27 GMT

@imastawka wrOte:
SOCK PUPPET | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary -

on the internet, a false identity (= a name and character) created by someone in order to express views that they want to have expressed, for example praise or support for a particular organization or person:

SHILL | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary -

Someone who helps another person to persuade people to buy something, especially by pretending to be a satisfied customer

-----------------------------------------------

4channel writes:

Reply, hmmm. Hello imastawka? Yes that's right. We know that!

kudos lol

OK, when a seller creates IDs with the intention of bumping up their own bids, that ID is behaving like a sock poppet. Rewarding themselves or rather dosing themselves with glowing feedback via their extra created IDs to enhance their own profile is sockpuppet type behaviour. This has happened.

Re: Fake bids

padi*0409 — Mon, 07 Mar 2022 23:31:59 GMT

@4channel wrote:

OK, when a seller creates IDs with the intention of bumping up their own bids, that ID is behaving like a sock poppet. Rewarding themselves or rather dosing themselves with glowing feedback via their extra created IDs to enhance their own profile is sockpuppet type behaviour. This has happened.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever 4chanel. Why on earth would someone create an ID then bump up the bids on the items they already own (and pay fees on them) to get feedback.

If someone wanted to boost their feedback it would be far easier, an less expensive, to buy a heap of goods from Chinese sellers for next to nothing. Noting that Chinese seller will nearly always leave feedback as soon as the buyer pays.

I reckon that you are clutching at straws to make your hypothesis believable.

Re: Fake bids

4channel — Mon, 07 Mar 2022 23:52:39 GMT

-- -- -- --

@4channel wrote:

OK, when a seller creates IDs with the intention of bumping up their own bids, that ID is behaving like a sock poppet. Rewarding themselves or rather dosing themselves with glowing feedback via their extra created IDs to enhance their own profile is sockpuppet type behaviour. This has happened.

@padi*0409 wrote:

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever 4chanel. Why on earth would someone create an ID then bump up the bids on the items they already own (and pay fees on them) to get feedback.

If someone wanted to boost their feedback it would be far easier, an less expensive, to buy a heap of goods from Chinese sellers for next to nothing. Noting that Chinese seller will nearly always leave feedback as soon as the buyer pays.

I reckon that you are clutching at straws to make your hypothesis believable.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry boss. I should have put a space in between both scenarios. I did put the second one on a new line but I know, a space makes it easier. My uncool. Should have been like this below

.. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..

OK, when a seller creates IDs with the intention of bumping up their own bids, that ID is behaving like a sock poppet.

Rewarding themselves or rather dosing themselves with glowing feedback via their extra created IDs to enhance their own profile is sockpuppet type behaviour. This has happened.

.. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..

* OK, scenario is with the bumping up of bids to increase profit at the unsuspecting bidder's expense.

* And scenario 2 is with sellers with low or bad feedback using extra created sockpuppet IDs to dose themselves with glowing feedback to make themselves appear to be a better more sound seller than what they really are.. And yes, this happens.

There are also people who would use both tactics at different times. And no doubt a seller or two who has been using a sock-puppet type of ID to bump up their own bids would reward themselves with feedback if they accidentally won their own auction.

Don't you think?

Re: Fake bids

padi*0409 — Tue, 08 Mar 2022 00:16:50 GMT

@4channel wrote:

Don't you think ?

Nope I don't. I think you're over-thinking the whole thing, and I don't understand why you're fixated on calling a shill bidder a "sock-puppet" either.

Let's agree to disagree huh ?

Re: Fake bids

4channel — Tue, 08 Mar 2022 00:51:38 GMT

Thats fine.

Re: Fake bids

*sons_and_daughters* — Tue, 08 Mar 2022 19:15:29 GMT

@padi*0409 wrote

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever 4chanel. Why on earth would someone create an ID then bump up the bids on the items they already own (and pay fees on them) to get feedback.

If someone wanted to boost their feedback it would be far easier, an less expensive, to buy a heap of goods from Chinese sellers for next to nothing. Noting that Chinese seller will nearly always leave feedback as soon as the buyer pays.

I reckon that you are clutching at straws to make your hypothesis believable.

Sadly padi*0409 it happens. A few years back (could be 6 or 7 years ago), I searched looking for a gift to buy my brother for his birthday. I knew he absolutely loved Thangka paintings from Tibet / Nepal, so decided that would be the ideal gift.

I had quite a few months to secure the ideal artwork. I found an ebay seller in Melbourne, who I learned also had an art gallery. Could it get any more perfect? If you have an art gallery, you must know about paintings, yeah?

Most of her listings were auctions. I bid on quite a few. A number of times my bids were cancelled. The auction would end at a lower price than my bid was. It would then reappear the next day as a new auction. Being a relatively newbie at the time, I kept trying to buy, because I just wanted one! All my bids were either cancelled or I'd be outbid. This went on for a few months, so tried to find out what was going on.

First stop, feedback. Lets just say that for the purpose of this exercise, the seller's ID was sockpuppet1 (mods, I have no idea if this is a real ID because I didn't check, but I am not naming and shaming.). On looking at the selling and buying feedback, there was lots of recent feedback, absolutely praising the seller for absolutely everything possible, except sending their first born....that came later 😄

What I noticed was, members named sockpuppet 2, sockpuppet3, sockpuppet4 were leaving regular feedback for this seller, as sellers, assuming my seller was the "buyer", and my seller leaving feedback for them, with the items they left feedback for being relisted very quickly.

Once I realised what was going on, I reported the seller to ebay. The results were, I assume, they could still sell, but not list auctions for 30 days because all auctions stopped for 4 weeks. I don't know if they are still selling. My brother got a you beaut coffee machine for that birthday that year. He's pretty much destroyed it from overuse. I never bid again on that seller after that.

As for the fees, the "seller" would have sent a cancellation request, which the buyer had to accept. Fees would be refunded. They would then relist. Of course, the buyer would have accepted the cancellation, because the buyer and seller are one in the same person.