topic Re: Fraud - Obtain Benefit By Deception in Buying

Fraud - Obtain Benefit By Deception

diverdan05 — Mon, 31 Oct 2022 03:41:48 GMT

Fraud offences do vary from State to State, however all revolve around a deception.
I recently purchased an item off a seller after asking specific questions not listed in their description. When it arrived I found the seller had lied about the quality of the item. I had taken photos of the item and sent these to the seller, who offered a partial refund. When I declined this the seller stated I would have to pay for postage. I outlined what had taken place to the seller and they agreed to send me a postage label. Once the seller received the returned item they refunded my payment. A few days later I noticed the seller had relisted the item, changed the quality but listed that the item has been tested and works perfectly. I then sent further photos to the seller that proved the item is defective. The seller stated they tested this and all similar items they are selling and it worked fine. I then asked the seller what feedback I should leave and was advised that based on everything they had done for me, it should be positive. I left negative feedback also outlining the condition of this item. Within 24 hours this feedback was removed. I then reported this seller to eBay, who advised they would take action. That was a week ago and the item is still being listed. You have to wonder why no action has been taken.

Re: Fraud - Obtain Benefit By Deception

springyzone — Mon, 31 Oct 2022 04:01:00 GMT

I don't know why your feedback was removed. There are some things you can't mention in feedback so maybe it broke one of those rules, that is all I can think of.

It is a shame as if the item is defective then your feedback could have ben a heads up to other buyers to steer clear.

By the sound of it, this settlement/refund was done privately and not by you opening an ebay claim for item not as described.

Ebay usually advises buyers to try to work it out with sellers before opening a claim but quite frankly, from everything I read on these forums, I think opening a proper claim is usually the best way to go.

However, the main thing is you got a full refund. I don't like how the seller tried to scam you into paying return postage. That's fine in a change of mind case but not if an item is defective. In this case I think the seller would have deserved a neg for lying about the condition of an item and then asking you to pay return postage.

Ebay probably won't do a thing, as you have found. Especially with a seller who is insisting the items work fine. All you can hope for is that any later buyer who notices a fault will go on to open a claim for a full refund.

You've done what you could and I am glad you at least got your money back.

Re: Fraud - Obtain Benefit By Deception

diverdan05 — Mon, 31 Oct 2022 04:30:04 GMT

Thanks for reply. I did open a return case with eBay and attached the photos that prove the item is defective. Yes I did get my money back, however my concern is for the next buyer who takes this seller at their word. This was the purpose of my feedback, to alert others. It would appear that eBay does not share the same opinion.

Re: Fraud - Obtain Benefit By Deception

gutterpunkz05 — Mon, 31 Oct 2022 10:05:16 GMT

What were you hoping to achieve by asking what FB you should leave, especially as it would appear you brought this up when questioning the seller about a relisted item, not part of your actual transaction.

Seems somewhat threatening/intimidatory and bordering on FB Extortion.

Re: Fraud - Obtain Benefit By Deception

diverdan05 — Wed, 02 Nov 2022 06:59:34 GMT

By asking a seller questions to ascertain men's rea, you have determined this seems somewhat threatening/ intimidatory and bordering on FB Extortion. To save you looking it up. The Definition of Threatening/ intimidatory behaviour is; "intimidation or intentional behaviour that causes another person to fear injury or harm".
Based on this definition and my intention both your comments are therefore wrong. The definition of extortion is;
"the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats."

Based on the above definition and as my intention was not to obtain money or any form of FB via force or threats, your comment is also wrong. Not sure if you have seen this article, but it makes for interesting reading;

"cnbc.com/2022/09/29/former-ebay-executives-given-jail-time-for-cyberstalking-scheme"

And no, I was not cyberstalking this clearly shonky seller. If a 'Venue' allows a crime to be committed (fraud) after being provided clear evidence, are they therefore not an accessory both before/after the fact?

Re: Fraud - Obtain Benefit By Deception

repentatleisure1952 — Wed, 02 Nov 2022 07:09:15 GMT

Over the years I have received a couple of items that did not match the description.

I used the MBG to receive a refund & moved on.

I think you need a new hobby.

Re: Fraud - Obtain Benefit By Deception

diverdan05 — Wed, 02 Nov 2022 08:07:52 GMT

My outlook on life has never been one of "I'm alright Jack". With my boss recently describing my actions as altruistic.

And this is not my first rodeo ( not my hobby ).

Re: Fraud - Obtain Benefit By Deception

gutterpunkz05 — Wed, 02 Nov 2022 10:38:08 GMT

Oh boy, someone who has heard of men's rea, (perry mason re-runs by chance), and relys on Websters defenitions.

Yes, I stand by my original reply,

Never mentioned cyber stalking, but if the hat fits!. As for the link, very old news and don't know why you would think it is relevant to your pursuit of the seller in question.

As for Ebay removing your negative feedback, whilst it is apparently irksome to you, obviously the seller was able to convince ebay that it was a breach of policies, (I wonder which one) and ebay agreed with the seller.

No one here gives a rats what your employer thinks of you.

First rodeo!!!!! or 100th!!! who cares, you can enter as many as you like as coming last is easy.

Re: Fraud - Obtain Benefit By Deception

gutterpunkz05 — Wed, 02 Nov 2022 10:52:25 GMT

Feedback extortion

Buyers aren't allowed to use threats of negative feedback or low detailed seller ratings to get something that wasn't part of the original listings, and sellers can't demand positive feedback from buyers.

Re: Fraud - Obtain Benefit By Deception

ratman0100 — Wed, 02 Nov 2022 11:02:36 GMT

Wow been a while since I visited these forums. Now I remember why I didnt bother anymore. There is those that wish to **bleep** on anyone who opens a feed. Same old nasty people as usual.

Re: Fraud - Obtain Benefit By Deception

davewil1964 — Wed, 02 Nov 2022 11:04:18 GMT

So what is YOUR solution to the OP's issue?

You say nasty, most objective observers would say factual.

Re: Fraud - Obtain Benefit By Deception

springyzone — Wed, 02 Nov 2022 19:54:13 GMT

Diverdan05, I don't believe that you were trying to intimidate the seller or threaten him at all with your question. In fact I would say the opposite, that you were hesitant about giving the seller a negative, despite some bad vibes about the whole sale.

The trouble here is that a lot of ebay transactions & disputes seem to be handled automatically by computers, not by humans. And when humans are contacted, in the person of ebay reps, they tend to go with simplistic yes/no judgements.

One of the rules about feedback is that a buyer must not be seen to be holding feedback over a seller's head. Now I know you didn't mean that at all, but in effect, I think what it sometimes amounts to in ebay land is that if a buyer even mentions the word feedback in their messages, just the word alone can be enough for an ebay rep to let a seller win a claim of feedback extortion.

The best thing to do in any cases like this is never mention it, ever.

Make your own decision after weighing up all the factors.

Re: Fraud - Obtain Benefit By Deception

ratman0100 — Thu, 03 Nov 2022 07:31:25 GMT

There is a way to say things and being a smart aleck or plain nasty is not one of them. Or do some feel like they can say anything they want because they are behind a keyboard?

Re: Fraud - Obtain Benefit By Deception

davewil1964 — Thu, 03 Nov 2022 08:00:00 GMT

Some certainly do

Re: Fraud - Obtain Benefit By Deception

diverdan05 — Sat, 05 Nov 2022 21:48:05 GMT

Thanks for your reply and you are correct. My post was never about feedback, negative or otherwise.

There are a large number of sellers committing fraud on this 'Venue' and eBay does nothing about it when notified. From selling clearly fake items to dishonest listings about the items they are selling.

eBay has a number of policies in place for sellers to abide by and claim they have nothing to do with the actual sale of the goods, yet they dictate how these sellers behave by not removing them off their venue when notified. Including images that prove items are defective or fake. In this case, when I asked if the items had any scratches the seller replied, "no they don't, they are in good condition". I took images of the footage of one of the movies when it continually froze and sent these in my case return to eBay and to the seller. To date the seller is still being allowed to list this item as "Acceptable condition - used so some slight marks but tested and plays perfectly. The seller's comments are dishonest and a clear deception.

There are also a number of ways that shonky sellers can get away with what they are doing including negative/neutral feedback that drops off the system and private listings that aid in this.

My post was/is about this 'Venue' aiding sellers.

Nasty people can reply however their comments will be treated as, water off a duck's back.

Re: Fraud - Obtain Benefit By Deception

diverdan05 — Sat, 05 Nov 2022 22:48:26 GMT

You completely missed the point of my link.

If this is going on at the top of their organisation, what ethical/legal/policy accountability is being complied with in the lower ranks of this organisation.

And if you are going to throw stones, be prepared for a return volley.

This is not about feedback in any shape or form!

Re: Fraud - Obtain Benefit By Deception

diverdan05 — Sat, 05 Nov 2022 23:02:28 GMT

The point of my post is not about feedback. However, in saying this I don't believe a seller's negative feedback should drop off the system after twelve months.

In our adversarial system the judge/magistrate does not get to see the charged person's criminal history until sentencing. I was recently advised by eBay that they can see all communication between buyers and sellers, including the negative ones that drop off the system. Is eBay therefore putting itself up as judge and jury?

Re: Fraud - Obtain Benefit By Deception

sandypebbles — Sat, 05 Nov 2022 23:07:19 GMT

The neg does not drop off the system

The red dot and the words remain, the red dot no longer counts towards the seller's % after one year

Big difference

However a buyer can only be given positive feedback, even if they are the biggest scammer who has opened more fake claims or used an item and then claimed it was used when they got it. so even the biggest scammer buyer will always have 100%. Positive Always

Is that ok?

Re: Fraud - Obtain Benefit By Deception

diverdan05 — Sat, 05 Nov 2022 23:55:29 GMT

Thanks for your reply,

The point of my post is not about feedback, however in this situation it is gone completely.

Over the years I have also encountered buys who attempt to commit fraud, which is part of the reason I no longer sell on eBay.

The three strikes rule should apply to all shonky buyers and sellers. However in saying this, eBay will lose what they are in business for.

Re: Fraud - Obtain Benefit By Deception

papermoon.lady — Sun, 06 Nov 2022 04:09:03 GMT

You can find past feedback if (on the fb page) you go to "received as seller", then scroll down (it will help to change to 200 items per page).

As Sandy said, negative fb does not count towards the overall score any more after a year, but it is still there to see.