topic Re: Refund/Return advice for items which turned out to be counterfeit in Buying

Refund/Return advice for items which turned out to be counterfeit

sharmes6 — Sat, 04 Feb 2023 07:49:33 GMT

Hi,

Late last year I bid on and won two Star Wars movie posters (TFA and TLJ) which had apparently been signed by the cast at the premieres. I did a bit of research before bidding but TBH couldn't find much info, and the seller looked legit, with all positive feedback, about 60 sales, and included were a lanyard which was apparently issued to attendees of the after party where the items were issued, and a certificate of authenticity which had a numbered holographic sticker, as did the posters themselves.

I received the items, and the posters look amazing, are in mint condition, and I bought frames for them and had them on display. Then I posted pics on half a dozen facebook pages to show off my new Star Wars posters, and people loved them, but a couple of people who said they were in the know, pointed out that some of the signatures did not look correct. At first I shrugged it off, but then as I looked more into it, I found poster collecting forums online where they were discussing these type of cast signed posters, that were apparently signed by everyone atthe premieres, and they were pointing out that they were all fake and these kind of signings arranged by the studio never happened. I then did a little investigating on Ebay and found the same style of posters from different movie franchises, eg Iron Man, Avengers, Eternals, and found four different sellers with just one to three feedback, where the descriptions were identical and the wooden floor where the photos of the posters and certificates were taken was identical between all the sellers. Also, the seller I originally purchased from had no items for sale, and someone had recently left a negative review on their feedback saying they were selling fakes and they had notified Ebay of 20 different accounts which were then closed down.

It all sounds dodgy as to me, so I contacted Ebay. I informed them of all the evidence, gave them the sellers' alias seller names etc, but they have just started a regular return, and not an investigation or anything. Now the seller has replied to Ebay saying they will accept the return, but they also notified Ebay that they cannot supply a return shipping label. The seller is in the USA and I am in Australia. I have two concerns. Firstly I don't want to have to pay for return postage on an item that is counterfeit, secondly I do not trust the seller, and am concerned that they have given a fake address and name given their other online activities. If my return package just gets lost, or if they don't sign for it etc, because of that then I will not get my money back.

Surely if there are counterfeit items being sold Ebay should be escalating this case by default. I have also reported the other items that the seller's alias accounts have listed but,for some reason they are still up for auction, so there are about to be another dozen or so people who receive fake signed movie posters.

Re: Refund/Return advice for items which turned out to be counterfeit

davewil1964 — Sat, 04 Feb 2023 08:00:54 GMT

eBay will not take any action. They have only your word they are fake. Unless you are an authorised, accredited expert, your word carries no weight.

As far as postage goes, if the seller agrees to refund you that through the case, eBay might guarantee the refund, but I'm not sure. I don't buy from overseas.

Re: Refund/Return advice for items which turned out to be counterfeit

the_dutchess_of_dork — Sat, 04 Feb 2023 08:41:28 GMT

There are many knowledgeable people on these boards who will assist you. I have no experience with overseas purchases.

However, in response to one of your concerns, I would absolutely ensure you send the posters back with Signature on Delivery ... even if you have to pay for it yourself. Within Australia SOD costs $2.95. I have no idea how much it costs for international postage but I doubt it is prohibitive. Considering what they are, I assume the posters were not cheap so it is worth the expense for your peace of mind; particularly if the seller does prove to be less than 100% honest.

Unfortunately, eBay cannot simply take someone's word regarding authenticity.

Re: Refund/Return advice for items which turned out to be counterfeit

gutterpunkz05 — Sat, 04 Feb 2023 10:26:38 GMT

Hi sharmes,

This one is a bit different, interested in your call, REAL or FAKE

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/204053771628?chn=ps&_ul=AU&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-139619-5960-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=204053771628&targetid=1280815718535&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=20037&poi=&campaignid=9773393650&mkgroupid=129538324224&rlsatarget=pla-1280815718535&abcId=578876&merchantid=9696242&gclid=Cj0KCQiAofieBhDXARIsAHTTldrR2kovYzzFHNnFBRhpsTt8yzQHiFntQsUHzpPkS--wNE17SZUNPx8aApZQEALw_wcB

Just to be clear, the seller you purchased from, while no listings current, their account is still active.

Re: Refund/Return advice for items which turned out to be counterfeit

earthdreamer — Sat, 04 Feb 2023 11:09:12 GMT

In reality, you have no evidence whether these posters are fake or not.

If I were you, I would continue to enjoy the posters and determine to apply more caution next time.

Re: Refund/Return advice for items which turned out to be counterfeit

gutterpunkz05 — Sat, 04 Feb 2023 11:45:33 GMT

Hi E D, Yep, I would be keeping it to, but I would prefer people had not scribbled all over it.

Anyway, I would be contacting MARVEL to verify the authenticity, if not authentic I am sure MARVEL, LUCASFILMS/WALT DISNEY PICTURES, would like to know.

Re: Refund/Return advice for items which turned out to be counterfeit

*sons_n_daughters* — Sat, 04 Feb 2023 11:56:28 GMT

If the seller has accepted a return, then they pay for the postage. As they can't send a postage label, they have to send you the money, including signature on delivery. If they refuse, ask ebay to step in and help when the option appears, and you should get refunded without having to return. Assuming you opened a dispute for item not as described, and not just a general return request.

A return request generally means change of mind, in which case, you'll have to pay the postage. Even if the tracking says delivered, there is no guarantee you'll get a refund with a general return request case.

Are you absolutely, positively 100% sure that it's a fake?

Even if you report the seller, and ebay investigates, you will never be told the outcome of the investigation.

Re: Refund/Return advice for items which turned out to be counterfeit

jellybirddesigns — Sat, 04 Feb 2023 12:04:24 GMT

I assume you opened an "Item not as Described" dispute and NOT a "Change of Mind" return? If it is the former, seller must supply label or postage funds. If it is the latter, you must pay to return them.

Under not circumstances must you be out of pocket for a return that is not as described. Perhaps contact chat during normal business hours and tell them that seller has accepted return, but does not want to transfer any funds to you to cover the postage (such as through PayPal, for example). Bear in mind that disputes only last about 4 business days.

Get them to perhaps close the case in your favour since the seller is unwilling to pay for postage.

Going forward, you really don't need to involve customer service at the first instance - just open the relevant dispute and get a refund. It's an automated process for the most part. If you get a refund, you're free to do what you like with the posters.

Lastly - Ebay do not undertake to ascertain what is genuine, and what is counterfeit. There are hundreds of millions of listings worldwide - Ebay are not going to "investigate" anything.

Re: Refund/Return advice for items which turned out to be counterfeit

*sons_n_daughters* — Sat, 04 Feb 2023 12:34:38 GMT

Ebay do investigate listings if there are reports put in about a seller. I have lodged several reports for various reasons. Some were for feedback, where they buy their own items to give themselves feedback, usually from another account. In those instances, the feedback from those accounts was removed.

Same seller as one of the reports above were very blatant about shill bidding. That particular seller was put on BIN for 6 months. They weren't allowed to list auctions. I know that, because I pretended to be an interested buyer and wanted to use the auction rather than BIN.

Yes, ebay don't tell you the reports of investigations, but you can certainly keep an eye on the accounts you've reported.

Reported listings, they don't really attract attention from the "investigators". That said, I have reported quite a few scam listings over the years and it was surprising how many were removed. They things like Makita drills with all the bells and whistles for $20. They would list in the automotive section, often under pocket bikes, so buyers couldn't open a dispute (there is no buyer protection in automotive).

There were also other listings for things like DVD players that had lost of flashy graphics. To buy one new in store could be upwards of $400. Scam listing, $20. Some were removed quickly, others could take a few reports. Again, listed in automotive.

Some of these scam sellers were why the 30 day hold came in. More often than not, they'd hijacked an account. They would sit there and watch the money come flooding in, and they'd be gone. The 30 day hold slowed some of them up a bit.

Re: Refund/Return advice for items which turned out to be counterfeit

sharmes6 — Sat, 04 Feb 2023 17:24:52 GMT

That one looks pretty legitimate to me, given the photographic evidence. Pretty expensive too. Mine were definitley not that expensive, but I did pay over $1000 AUD for the two posters.

Re: Refund/Return advice for items which turned out to be counterfeit

sharmes6 — Sat, 04 Feb 2023 23:01:36 GMT

Actually , as I stated in my post above, I have quite a bit of evidence that the posters are fake, given that in the poster collecting community, it seems to be common knowledge that these signings at movie premieres do not occur. At the very least the seller has some shady business practices, having at least 24 different known selling accounts selling the same or similar items, with the same photo backgrounds, same descriptions, title layouts etc. The seller accounts are all in different states, yet all the photographs across these seller accounts are taken on the same polished hardwood floor.

I would be curious to obtain others thoughts on these accounts. Do they seem suspicious?

Re: Refund/Return advice for items which turned out to be counterfeit

sharmes6 — Sat, 04 Feb 2023 22:43:21 GMT

I would be curious to obtain others thoughts on the validity of a seller with (apparently at least) twenty accounts already shut down, and five current that I have found with a few minutes research, all with different addresses in different states, but with the same photo backgrounds, extremely similar products (Signed posters, COA, lanyard all with holographic stickers), same title and description layouts.

Re: Refund/Return advice for items which turned out to be counterfeit

gutterpunkz05 — Sat, 04 Feb 2023 19:33:06 GMT

Thats what I thought, but item specifics state it is a reproduction. Possibly an error.

But the photographic evidence, that is provided, would tend to indicate that these cast signing events do occur, and it is also accompanied with a premiere lanyard/ID

Re: Refund/Return advice for items which turned out to be counterfeit

springyzone — Sat, 04 Feb 2023 19:59:03 GMT

I can't help you with the authenticity of the posters but from what you have said, you have enough reason to at least suspect they are fakes.

If so, and if the seller is associated with other accounts, or if you strongly suspect this to be the case, then it follows that you suspect this was a deliberate scam and not an honest mistake.

In that case, the seller is not to be trusted. You say you paid over $1000 for these 2 posters and you have spent money framing them.

Personally, there is no way on earth I'd be posting them, at my own expense, back to this seller, and expecting that when they arrived, I'd get a refund. If that seller has over 60 recent sales, he could well be past the 30 day hold on funds so all he would have to do is close that account before the posters arrived and skip over to another alias.

I no longer sell so I don't know for sure if that is how it could work, but that is what I'd be worried about.

Then you'd be out of pocket for the $1000 plus extra postage and to add insult to injury, you wouldn't have the posters either!

I'd just keep the posters I think. You say they look amazing, you've spent that extra money for frames. You could check to see if the claim you opened was for not as described and if so, and if the seller does not provide return postage, then escalate it to get your money back & if I have it right, you wouldn't have to return the posters either.

If the seller doesn't provide postage, that would sort of prove your claim as if the posters were genuine, a seller would be keen to get valuable items back.

Re: Refund/Return advice for items which turned out to be counterfeit

earthdreamer — Sun, 05 Feb 2023 00:51:00 GMT

@sharmes6 wrote:
I would be curious to obtain others thoughts on the validity of a seller with (apparently at least) twenty accounts already shut down, and five current that I have found with a few minutes research, all with different addresses in different states, but with the same photo backgrounds, extremely similar products (Signed posters, COA, lanyard all with holographic stickers), same title and description layouts.

Aside from whether the posters are genuine or not, the fact that identical photos appear under several accounts may only indicate that the sellers used the "Sell Similar" option when creating their listings.

As a seller yourself, you would be aware of this possibility.

Re: Refund/Return advice for items which turned out to be counterfeit

sharmes6 — Sun, 05 Feb 2023 05:53:51 GMT

The photos are not identical. They are taken in an identical location. The background for all the photos is a polished hardwood floor with identical markings, ie the same hardwood floor. Why would 5 different sellers in different states of the USA be taking photos of autographed posters on the same hardwood floor. Also, each of these users only have 1, 2 or 3 feedback, and about 10-20 sales each, ie they are new accounts being opened as old ones are being closed down. Another buyer stated that Ebay had already closed down 20 other accounts selling the same items (same as in autographed posters, not the same posters).

Re: Refund/Return advice for items which turned out to be counterfeit

domino-710 — Sun, 05 Feb 2023 05:59:43 GMT

Could it be - all these sellers - have purchased from the same source - hence the photos of the hardwood floor.

Rather than try to take a pic in their own environment.??

Not saying they are or are not fake - but think.

Re: Refund/Return advice for items which turned out to be counterfeit

sharmes6 — Wed, 15 Feb 2023 02:06:04 GMT

An update on this matter, I just received a full refund for the counterfeit items from Ebay yesterday. It did take a little while to get to this stage, but it wasn't too difficult. I first contacted Ebay, informed them of my allegations on the items and the seller, and also gave information and evidence on why I thought they were counterfeit and gave customer support the seller's alias accounts which were selling the same type of products. They then opened a return case, the seller accepted the return, but informed Ebay that they could not provide a retuurn shipping label. As suggested by Ebay, I contacted the seller directly to arrange a return shipping label or the funds to purchase a return a return label, but I received no reply. I gave it about 7 business days as required, and then contacted Ebay again. Their next step was to contact the seller themselves. During that second support call the CS officer suggested I report the seller and alias sellers through Ebay, so I did that. I reported all items and sellers who were selling the same type of items, ie the sellers with identical titles descriptions, photo backgrounds etc. They were literally identically formatted so it was easy to tell. Well, about 4 business days later I received emails that my refunds were processing and Ebay CS contacted me to confirm that my refund claim was successful.

Thanks to Ebay CS who were very helpful in this case, and to the posters on this thread for their advice.

Re: Refund/Return advice for items which turned out to be counterfeit

gutterpunkz05 — Wed, 15 Feb 2023 03:33:50 GMT

Hi sharmes. I see the sellers account is still valid, and both sales to you still show as valid sales.

There are many ways for ebay to verify if ebay accounts are linked in anyway, if one account is closed by ebay, all linked accounts are also closed, this can even extend to friends, relatives and work colleagues .

So a bit unusual that the account is still active. (has not sold since december).

Have you made any attempt to verify if the premier signings actually took place and if the items you purchased are in fact genuine or not, I am sure the relevant companies can readily confirm.

Return postage for international sellers is a pain, and something ebay really need to address.

Re: Refund/Return advice for items which turned out to be counterfeit

gutterpunkz05 — Wed, 15 Feb 2023 03:38:42 GMT

Just to add, when contacting companies seeking verification of authenticity etc, a good trick/tactic

is to claim you are trying to settle a bet, usually they are only too willing to help.

Nothing wrong with spinning a bit of a yarn to background the bet.