topic Re: Can I win this counterfeit case? in Buying

Can I win this counterfeit case?

ikiryou.kodomo — Wed, 25 Sep 2013 02:34:25 GMT

Hi everyone, I'm looking to open a case with an eBay seller but I am unsure if I have enough evidence to win the case.

I had been led to believe that a seller had been selling authentic Audio-Technica products. Within minutes of opening it, I was able to identify it as a counterfeit.

Now I am already having problems with it.

I suspect it being a fake as
1. Its sound quality was as terrible as my webcam microphone
2. It picked up a lot of background sounds, which indicated by dozens of reviews, shouldn't.

It has now only been 3 days and its sound pick-up has dropped SIGNIFICANTLY. I have not dropped it or moved it since I installed it and have done many things to try and fix the problem. Including, restarting my pc and unplugging it and replugging it back in.

After contacting the seller and telling them my suspiscion.

Their response was, quite literally quoted:

"Yep you got us we are selling fake microphones, what an astute and savvy customer you are. It's amazing that you managed to catch us out on this fake microphone when none of our thousands of customers have managed to do so!".

Is the above enough (direct admittance to selling a counterfeit) to win a case? I am not wiling to pay shipping fees to send it to Audio-Technica themselves to do a frequency test to prove it or refund a counterfeit product at my cost .

Re: Can I win this counterfeit case?

nevillesdaughter — Wed, 25 Sep 2013 02:41:53 GMT

Assuming you paid with Paypal, you should immediately open an "Item not as described" case, and follow instructions from there. You may be asked to provide proof that it is a fake, and I would refer them to the message from the seller. If they ask you to return the item to the seller, via trackable, with signature, means to the address provided by Paypal, follow these instructions to the letter - otherwise you may not get your money back. The least you should be out of pocket is the return postage. If you choose to leave negative feedback, remember to keep it factual eg Not genuine product, as eBay will remove anything abusive or considered defamatory.

Cheers,

Marina.

Re: Can I win this counterfeit case?

foxette-in-sox — Wed, 25 Sep 2013 02:47:28 GMT

JMO but the sellers response is obviously sarcastic.

In order to provide proof to Paypal of it being a counterfeit,you would need a letter from an authorised seller of the genuine item & good luck with trying to find someone who will write that letter for you.

Re: Can I win this counterfeit case?

ikiryou.kodomo — Wed, 25 Sep 2013 02:49:14 GMT

Thanks for the reply Marina.
It is indeed through Paypal and
I have read dozens of policies and it is illegal to send counterfeit items which is going to be my argument in regards to not returning it.
But my main concern is, is that enough evidence to win. I do not want to open a dispute and then lose due to not having enough evidence.

So tl;dr, I'm asking if anyone has ever won a case with just that piece of evidence.

Re: Can I win this counterfeit case?

ikiryou.kodomo — Wed, 25 Sep 2013 02:51:00 GMT

Already working on that... Currently in contact with AT-US. But they said it may be better to contact Japanese division TAG.

Re: Can I win this counterfeit case?

kopenhagen5 — Wed, 25 Sep 2013 03:19:00 GMT

PayPal need proof.

I did recently win a case without written proof from a supplier, but I also did a lot of research and found and forwarded many websites with photographs that proved the item to be counterfeit. I also sent photos of my item with current front page of newspaper showing beyond a doubt it to be fake. (The seller had also lied about location of item)

PayPal won't require it to be returned but need you to sign a document that you have destroyed the item which I also took photos of.

You have nothing to lose by opening the case but if you can get documentation from Manufacturer, wait until then. (45 days max)

Keep in mind, only 60 days to leave feedback if you haven't already.

Re: Can I win this counterfeit case?

lyndal1838 — Wed, 25 Sep 2013 03:19:31 GMT

I am not sure who told you it is illegal to post counterfiet items but there is nothing in the AP rules that says so. And unless you get that letter that confirms it to be counterfeit you cannot use that as an excuse.

Re: Can I win this counterfeit case?

jameshouseofstyle — Wed, 25 Sep 2013 03:20:17 GMT

Hi OP,

sorry, but chances are the item isn't fake if the seller sold it to thousands of others, as they say, without an incident, unless of course all of his previous customers were brain dead.

And that is also not very likely.

Seller has sent you a sarcastic message - it doesn't even come close to a proof of item being a fake.

As for being illegal to send them, that is also rubbish.

It got to you OK, presumably by post, no reason it can't go back the same way.

I yet have to see PO arresting anyone for posting even a genuine fakes - they wouldn't have a clue even if they tripped over something if it's fake or not. But even then, they would have to open the parcel first, as if.

If a really and obviously fake item is going back - to another country, one of the customs guys told us to just write on the outside it's a fake.... blah, blah, being returned for refund When I asked him what do they do with those parcels, the reply was: "Nothing!

For us to do anything would have to be crates and crates of merchandise, destined to be sold in huge quantities."

So, if you do want a refund, send the item back as it's no longer your property - even if it is a fake and you manage to get comfitmation of that in writing, which you'll need to obtain a refund.

Good luck with it all, but you may be better off claiming the item doesn't work properly (which it doesn't ,as you stated), send it back and get the refund that way.

Just a suggestion, of course, see what the others think.

Cheers.

Re: Can I win this counterfeit case?

ikiryou.kodomo — Wed, 25 Sep 2013 03:33:49 GMT

First of all, they state they have sold to thousands of sellers. They have no proof of that and their eBay only has maybe 200 or so feedbacks. And yes, I figured that this may not be enough to win a case, but you never know if it's possible or not.

As for "illegal for them to be sent", is not "rubbish" as you put. You have obviously not read any policies. I understand that nothing may not actually happen in the case that an illegal item is sent. But that policy certainly exists.
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/Marketing/popup/UAeBay-outside
Section 14.3, under "How is the Claim resolved?"
If I can't win the case then I will send it back for a refund for malfunction.
Thanks for the input.

Re: Can I win this counterfeit case?

kopenhagen5 — Wed, 25 Sep 2013 03:33:20 GMT

Recently PayPal stated - As it may not be legal to send counterfeit items the item therefore needs to be destroyed.

Probably as laws for different countries apply, PayPal have decided to opt that as their policy across the board.

Re: Can I win this counterfeit case?

ikiryou.kodomo — Wed, 25 Sep 2013 03:35:21 GMT

Could I get a link to the source? Or a pointer where I may read that?

Otherwise, quoted from the policy I linked.

"If you lose a Significantly Not as Described claim because the item you sold is counterfeit, you will be required to provide a full refund to the buyer and you will not receive the item back. (It will be destroyed.)"

Re: Can I win this counterfeit case?

lyndal1838 — Wed, 25 Sep 2013 03:44:15 GMT

@ikiryou.kodomo wrote:
First of all, they state they have sold to thousands of sellers. They have no proof of that and their eBay only has maybe 200 or so feedbacks. And yes, I figured that this may not be enough to win a case, but you never know if it's possible or not.

As for "illegal for them to be sent", is not "rubbish" as you put. You have obviously not read any policies. I understand that nothing may not actually happen in the case that an illegal item is sent. But that policy certainly exists.
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/Marketing/popup/UAeBay-outside
Section 14.3, under "How is the Claim resolved?"
If I can't win the case then I will send it back for a refund for malfunction.
Thanks for the input.

From the item location (Eastgardens NSW) I am guessing they are a retail store in the Westfields complex so have quite possible sold the thousands of item that they say they have.

And there is not Section 14.3 in that link.

Re: Can I win this counterfeit case?

the_great_she_elephant — Wed, 25 Sep 2013 03:44:16 GMT

I yet have to see PO arresting anyone for posting even a genuine fakes

I'm not surpised!

Re: Can I win this counterfeit case?

ikiryou.kodomo — Wed, 25 Sep 2013 03:50:46 GMT

13.4 my mistake.

And they are not inside Westfields. They are an outlet outside of it.

Re: Can I win this counterfeit case?

lyndal1838 — Wed, 25 Sep 2013 03:54:02 GMT

@ikiryou.kodomo wrote:
Could I get a link to the source? Or a pointer where I may read that?

Otherwise, quoted from the policy I linked.
"If you lose a Significantly Not as Described claim because the item you sold is counterfeit, you will be required to provide a full refund to the buyer and you will not receive the item back. (It will be destroyed.)"

You are quoting from Section 13.4 and if you read the whole section you will find that you have to PROVE that it is fake by providing the written report from a qualified 3rd party.

Only then will you be instructed to destroy the item. Until then, you must return it at your own expense by trackable post to get the refund.

If you know they are a retail outlet then why do you doubt that they have sold what they say they have sold.

Re: Can I win this counterfeit case?

bsal6160 — Wed, 25 Sep 2013 06:55:14 GMT

I would assume the ADMISSION by the seller that it was fake (keep that email for heavens sake,as Paypal have no sense of humour) whether it was meant to be sarcastic or not, would be proof to Paypal of a fake item. A statement like from the seller may see them have to refund ALL buyers who purchased that item. Bad karma on the sellers behalf i say. They admitted that ALL the items sold were fake, a sarcastic comment could get them in BIG trouble.

Re: Can I win this counterfeit case?

phorum_junkie* — Wed, 25 Sep 2013 08:40:53 GMT

Them having a retail outlet is not proof the items are genuine, a very large number of items sold in retail outlets are counterfeit.

It is certainly possible to prove an item is fake without a letter from a 3rd party but it requires persistance and a lot of research. I would never be prepared to return a fake item, if I had enough evidence, so that the seller could re sell it and rip somebody else off.

My reply to the OP's seller would be that as I was absolutely sure it was counterfeit I was passing all details onto the manufacturers, customs authorities and the online auction fraud police report site so if they were indeed genuine they would have nothing to worry about.

Re: Can I win this counterfeit case?

book-of-hezekiah — Wed, 25 Sep 2013 08:47:49 GMT

Australia Post Dangerous and Prohibited Items

http://auspost.com.au/parcels-mail/dangerous-and-prohibited-items.html

Page 16

Section 3 - Other Goods Prohibited or Restricted In All Services

D3.1 - Possession or Carriage Prohibited by Law

Australia Post prohibits any item the possession or carriage of which is prohibited by a law of the Commonwealth, a State or a Territory.

Australian Federal Police

http://www.afp.gov.au/policing/ip-crime/faq.aspx#What%20items%20are%20counterfeited

Australian Government: IP Australia Counterfeiting and Piracy

http://www.ipaustralia.gov.au/ip-infringement/counterfeiting-and-piracy/

Re: Can I win this counterfeit case?

lyndal1838 — Wed, 25 Sep 2013 09:08:22 GMT

@book-of-hezekiah wrote:
Australia Post Dangerous and Prohibited Items
http://auspost.com.au/parcels-mail/dangerous-and-prohibited-items.html

Page 16
Section 3 - Other Goods Prohibited or Restricted In All Services
D3.1 - Possession or Carriage Prohibited by Law
Australia Post prohibits any item the possession or carriage of which is prohibited by a law of the Commonwealth, a State or a Territory.

Australian Federal Police
http://www.afp.gov.au/policing/ip-crime/faq.aspx#What%20items%20are%20counterfeited

Australian Government: IP Australia Counterfeiting and Piracy
http://www.ipaustralia.gov.au/ip-infringement/counterfeiting-and-piracy/

That is all well and good but it still comes back to the OP getting PROOF that it is counterfeit.

You can stand on your high horse all you like but how is Australia Post going to know what is in the package?

The OP wants his money back...he can take the high moral ground and perhaps have to pay to prove the items are fake and hope paypal will refund without him having to return them.

Or he can take the easy and possibly cheaper way out and just open a dispute on the grounds that the item is not working properly. All that will cost is the postage with tracking back to the seller.

If he is really vindictive he can report the seller to the authorities for selling fakes after he has his money back.

Re: Can I win this counterfeit case?

thecatspjs — Wed, 25 Sep 2013 10:02:23 GMT

If you are able to locate a service centre that provides brand authorised service support to Audio-Technica products and take your purchased product in ask for a written quote to service your product on the basis it is authentic, but it has faults - you may have a chance of obtaining required verification that item is authentic or not as well as the information in written form that will satisfy the requirements of pursuing a paypal claim, and reporting seller if it is not real deal