topic Re: Registered post delivered to someone else in Buying

Registered post delivered to someone else

beanzo79 — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 01:22:12 GMT

Hey guys

Thought it worthwhile sharing this story, the latest in what I see on these forums is a long line of mistakes made by various postal agencies here and abroad.

Note that AP are currently investigating my claim, and I await the outcome of that investigation before deciding my next move, whether it be the ombudsman, a solicitor and/or VCAT.

I purchased an expensive camera ($2700) from a seller before Christmas (12th December). I requested that the seller provide me with insurance and registered post for the item.

Since that time, the item has been missing in action- the seller has not responded to my emails and I opened a dispute with Paypal. Paypal investigated, and found in the seller's favour because she was able to provide them with a tracking number that shows the item was delivered. I had been requesting this information from the seller for some time however she would only supply it to Paypal. Paypal provided me with the tracking information from the seller, and I was able to confirm through the Australia Post website the the item was indeed delivered.

Headed down to the AP outlet to check that the item was there as I had not received a note in the mailbox- customer service rep informed me that the item had been delivered and was signed for by someone called "M Harris'. Clearly not me! This confused both the AP customer servioce rep and me when I showed her my drivers licence (with signature) that is not in the name of M Harris.

At this point, AP have not stated where the item was delivered, why it was delivered to and signed for by someone who is not me, nor can they tell me of the seller had paid for the insurance that I requested (and paid extra for) during the transaction.

So far I have learnt:

1- Buyer protection from paypal only works if they are able to claim to refund from the buyer- in this case, because they can see the item was delivered to my suburb, they are satisfied that the seller is not at fault (regardless of whether she has put the correct address on the parcel, or if she paid for the insurance that I requested) and regardless of whether I have actually received the item. In effect is it not buyer protection at all

2- that someone with a different name is able to sign for post that is registered to someone else

3- that AP will not provide me with a copy of the signature for 'M Harris' that they have on file- they requested (and I provided) a copy of my signature, I assume so they can compare the handwriting to establish that it is not mine

4- that AP cannot, or are unwilling to, provide me with insurance details for the item that was sent.

I eagerly await the result of the AP investigation and will keep people informed of the outcome. Hopefully there are some leassons we can all learn out of this!

Re: Registered post delivered to someone else

digital*ghost — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 01:52:10 GMT

A tracking number alone is generally not sufficient for a seller to win a claim, as proof the item was sent to the address on the PayPal notification should have been required / supplied. I think it would probably be worthwhile contacting PayPal and verifying whether proof of addressee was also supplied, because if it wasn't you should have grounds to appeal the decision.

If proof of addressee was supplied then while you don't have Buyer Protection, you do have recourse via legal means due to the fact both registered and insured was requested - that means whether the seller actually registered or insured the package or not, they have a legal obligation to follow this up for you, seek any compensation due if the parcel isn't located and pass it on to you (and if an insured service wasn't used, they can still be found responsible because it was requested and (presumably) paid for.

Re: Registered post delivered to someone else

beanzo79 — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 02:06:23 GMT

That's what I thought too, but apparently Paypal is satisfied that the seller has done all she needs to do- and that is provide them with evidence that the item was delivered to the same postcode that the buyer lived in- which has happened, however not to the right resident of that postcode! Paypal could not confirm that the item was sent to my address, and neither can Australia Post......Yet!

I certainly feel that the seller would be liable if it was addressed differently to that provided during checkout but the struggle is how to prove that may have happened. At this stage, and even ater speaking to a Paypal 'supervisor' I have no grounds for an appeal to the original finding.

And if she has sent it to the correct address, then it is not her, but AP who should be liable, provided that she has insured it as I requested.

All a bit of a mess really, but it makes a mockery of the registered post system if there is no requirement for the signatures to match the buyer.......

Re: Registered post delivered to someone else

digital*ghost — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 02:34:33 GMT

What concerns me more is the seller's lack of response to your enquiries, but regardless of the circumstances and the level of proof of postage they were able to supply, they have a lot more responsibility in this case, including some legal ones, purely because registered/insured was requested and paid for.

If AP conclude that they lost the package, or misdelivered it and can not retreive it, the insurance is payable to the seller (who really should be the one following this up for you and making the claim - in fact, while you can request details etc, I'm pretty sure only the seller can initiate the claim), but the payout is due to you and their lack of response to what is obviously quite a serious situation doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in them even attempting to do the right thing by you - as I said, they have a legal responsibility to do this, and perhaps it might be worthwhile informing them of that fact, because their legal responsibilities can be enforced. If they did not insure the package as requested, it's quite possible they will be made to compensate you out of their own pocket, regardless of what happened to the package and whose fault it was.

On the chance this becomes a legal matter, I recommend saving any messages, emails etc you have sent to the seller (you can download messages from eBay if you deleted the email copies).

Re: Registered post delivered to someone else

digital*ghost — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 02:43:12 GMT

I should add a disclaimer that I am not a lawyer, but that the information I have provided so far is based on the information previously provided by a forum member who was, and whose knowledge on these matters far exceeds my own. As such, it's probably best to take my advice as a guide to available options / outcomes, and to talk to a real lawyer if you don't get the desired outcome and you need to pursue the matter further.

Re: Registered post delivered to someone else

beanzo79 — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 02:53:11 GMT

Yeah that has always been my issue to- she was very responsive until I had paid, and then went MIA after she had the money- She wouldn't even reply to me when I asked if she had posted the item, let alone provide a tracking number for it! In the end it was Paypal who gave me that. I have requested her phone number from ebay which they have provided, however it has been off for the last few days. I have given this info to ebay and they have stated that they will try and contact her on my behalf.

I just got a call back from a Paypal supervisor then actually, to ask me a few questions on the circumstances, stating that I was a very important customer to them etc etc. He was quite good, and said that it was important that I got as much information from AP as possible. Reading between the lines, they may well appeal if it is proven that whatever went wrong is not my fault.

I agree that it is the seller who has to instigate the insurance claim if it comes to that, but that has never seemed right to me, particularly after I have paid for the item. I remember reading somewhere that the item becomes AP's responsibility once they have been given it by the seller, and they are legally responsible for it. I assume that if the seller cannot be contacted to act on my behalf then ebay/Paypal would then become involved again, as it is them who has approved her account.

Good advice re saving messages- I have just done exactly that- I have been documenting all communication with AP, but hadn't bothered with email comms until now.

Cheers!

Re: Registered post delivered to someone else

beanzo79 — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 02:54:42 GMT

Cheers digital*ghost, understand that, and appreciate your advice.

Re: Registered post delivered to someone else

beautbots01 — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 03:13:10 GMT

It has also been previously suggested/recommended that a copy of the actual listing including description be copied, as if eBay decide (a possibility) to cancel this person's account (and this is the only transaction they have conducted on this id) the whole history including description, photos may disappear.

Australia Post reps do sometimes pop up on these forums, but not sure how helpful (or not) that may prove.

This will be a very interesting case which I am sure many members will watching.

Re: Registered post delivered to someone else

beanzo79 — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 03:57:08 GMT

Cheers beautbots01, asgain good advice- have done this now.

Interestingly, the item location listed in the original description was Lower Great Southern, which is a district in southern Western Australia (which is where ebay have the seller as being located too), yet the item was posted in Marrickville NSW! Not necessarily strange given that she may have been selling on behalf of someone else, but I was under the impression that the postage costs were from WA to melbourne, not NSW to Melbourne.

It's all very strange. I guess if ebay have no luck contacting the seller on my behalf (they have said they will provide me with a response by Sunday after givent he seller 48 hours) it may make Paypal consider accepting my appeal.

Cheers for the advice.

Re: Registered post delivered to someone else

digital*ghost — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 04:27:00 GMT

It's unfortunate that Australia Post do not keep a copy of the address when registered (or signature on delivery in the case of parcels) is used, as they just have a single-copy lodgement form which is kept by the sender (another reason why it's odd that it didn't seem to be uploaded by the seller during the dispute process).

Does the date and time of lodgement for the number you have match the purchase/send date? Most of the details so far make everything seem quite a bit sus (responsive seller until paid, no tracking provided until claim made, delivered to a different address from a different state than the seller appears to be located), but it's all circumstantial and it's difficult to know or find out for sure what has happened, but every little bit of info you can gather is likely to help build a more substantial case.

Re: Registered post delivered to someone else

beautbots01 — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 04:36:47 GMT

Another thing to think about. Did you use your credit card to pay via Paypal as you may be eligible for a chargeback. This could be verified with your bank, if this transaction turns out to be dodgy. Paypal will definitely pay attention then as they will have to recoup the money from the seller.

Re: Registered post delivered to someone else

beanzo79 — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 04:46:04 GMT

digital*ghost- yeah the timing of the postage matches my expectations, it's just the city and state that are out of whack there! Have asked the seller for the reason behind that, but I am not crossing my fingers!

beautbots i immediately thought of that too. but unfortunately it was a Paypal deduction from my savings account. not sure there are any security provisions there

Re: Registered post delivered to someone else

tstore — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 05:05:21 GMT

Never pay using an eCheque (drawn from savings account) via PayPal - you are not covered by any buyer protection. In fact I am surprised you were even able to lodge a PayPal claim as eCheques do not qualify for any protection.

Re: Registered post delivered to someone else

beanzo79 — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 05:17:50 GMT

Cheers tstore, but that's not what I understood the rules to be. I was under the impression that buyer protection stood regardless of how the money was paid, as long as it was done through paypal.

I have had a previous dispute upheld after transferring directly through my bank account with no problems.

Re: Registered post delivered to someone else

tstore — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 05:48:14 GMT

If you refer to the email you received when you paid from PayPal it states:

Seller/Buyer Protection - Not Eligible (in red).

Re: Registered post delivered to someone else

tstore — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 05:49:36 GMT

Irrespective hope you get your money back.

Re: Registered post delivered to someone else

beanzo79 — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 06:01:33 GMT

Actually tstore, it doesn't. It actually states that "You have 45 days from the date of your PayPal payment to open a dispute for eligible transactions in our Resolution Centre"

A click of the paypal buyer protection hyperlink states this:

Some things you need to do to be eligible

Buy physical items that can be shipped.
Pay for your item with PayPal.
Pay in a single payment.
Lodge a dispute within 45 days of payment

And upon reading the 'user agreement for paypal services' it does not state that paying for an item from a bank account will invalidate buyer protection- it lists a 'nominated bank account' as a valid form of payment.

Not sure where you have got your information from, if you have been sent that from paypal it would be good to see, cos it may change the way many people pay for purchases

Re: Registered post delivered to someone else

digital*ghost — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 06:23:21 GMT

@tstore wrote:
If you refer to the email you received when you paid from PayPal it states:

Seller/Buyer Protection - Not Eligible (in red).

eCheques provide the same Buyer Protection as any other payment method, but they are not eligible for seller protection until cleared, so that's why the initial payment notification and status in PP account will always state "Seller Protection - Not Eligible".

It's a bit safer for a seller to receive an eCheque purely because they can never be subject to a credit card chargeback, but a less so for the buyer unfortunately (particularly here) as there's no back-up to the standard PP protections.

Re: Registered post delivered to someone else

phorum_junkie* — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 06:42:30 GMT

The seller has fulfilled the requirements for seller protection so your claim is entirely with Paypal. You need to jump through several hoops but in the end you should get a refud. First you need to inform Paypal b email and over the phone that you are not satisfied with the outcome as you have not received your item. You can offer to send them a Stat Dec saying as much, sometimes this will do the trick. If it won't then you may have to go to the police and report it as a theft by somebody else signing for your parcel and tsking it, once you have a crime number conntact Paypal again. Keep it polite but be very insistent that you are due a refund and you intend to take it further if you have to. If they still won't refund you then you need to report Paypal to the FSO, that usually means they will release a voluntary payment while not admitting liability as it would cost them much more in time and effort to defend the case than to refund.

Of corse the fault probably lies with AP so you should certainly pursue them as the sender should also be doing and I believe there is the equivelent of a postal ombudsman who you can complain to.

Of course if you ever did get AP to admit responsibility and refund you then by rights you should pay Paypal back if they have issued a refud.

Re: Registered post delivered to someone else

tstore — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 07:04:19 GMT

Thanks Digital - that makes sense. Apologies for confusion OP