topic Re: Item not as described in Buying

Item not as described

audistarelectronics — Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:11:04 GMT

Hi all, just like a bit of advise on this one. Purchased a power invertor from a large seller which has damaged some of our appliances. We are setting up a small solar system just to help the electric account a little. On the sellers listing it claims it will operate houshold appliances with no exceptions listed, however on researching the subject, I learn that some items such as fan motors can be burnt out by using the particular invertor, which is what happened us. I contacted the seller, who has two types of unit for sale, and requested them to exchange the unit and I was willing to pay the extra (almost double the cost) to get the invertor that can operate fan motors etc. They refused saying that it was my problem that it wouldn't run my particular appliances.

If the listing had described the limitations of the unit, I could understand that, and say buyer beware, as I would have been forwarned that I would require the more expensive unit. Maybe my next step is to open a paypal case under item not as described, as it will not operate the appliances that the seller claims it will. Any help would be great.

Re: Item not as described

*sparklz* — Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:29:05 GMT

If it is not as described then open the dispute via paypal but you will have to return it at your cost if paypal find in your favor.

Make sure you in detail the reason why it is not as described in the dispute.

Re: Item not as described

*crikey*mate* — Thu, 23 Jan 2014 12:52:14 GMT

hello,

How long ago did you purchase the item?

edit - hold fire - found out LOL

Re: Item not as described

*crikey*mate* — Thu, 23 Jan 2014 12:55:56 GMT

Did you do this?

In order to calculate your power requirement, add up the wattage's of the tools, appliances, and items you want to use with your inverter. Keep in mind there are items that have resistive, or constant loads and those that have reactive loads. For constant load items, simply add up the Amps and multiply by 240 to find out the Watts you need.
Reactive load items require additional power when they start up. The product's nameplate should list both the operating amps and the maximum amps. When you do not have access to the nameplate for reactive load products, then as a guide, use the rated Amps or Watts multiplied by 9 to arrive at the total required at start up. Convert this figure to watts.
For example - a 200W power tool will need a 1800W inverter, a 60W fridge will need a 540W inverter and so on. It is also recommended to get an inverter with at least 30% more than your needs.

Re: Item not as described

audistarelectronics — Thu, 23 Jan 2014 13:33:17 GMT

Yes, sure did. It will certainly run all those loads ok, but will destroy anything with an ac induction motor such as fans etc.

Only a small load, but because of the square wave output of this type of invertor, will burn them out. Also even a clock radio is no go because they use the mains frequency as a time reference, and the square output will gain or lose time. All these loads require a pure sinewave invertor, which is what I wanted to exchange for, but the seller refuses to help. They should be warning on the listing regarding these limitations, but choose not to do so as the pure ones are almost trlple the cost. In other words, the cheaper units are useless for powering household appliances except maybe lighting and tv, as any motor driven items can be damaged.

Re: Item not as described

*crikey*mate* — Thu, 23 Jan 2014 13:40:26 GMT

unfortunately, the seller's description is vague enough to prevent you from claiming "significantly not as described". He did not state that it operated ALL appliances, only that it did operate appliances.

The time to research the product is before you commit to buy it, so you needed to do this and confirm with the seller which appliances it did operate.

I also understand the seller not wanting to exchange the item for you, you have used the item, what is the seller supposed to do with it?

If I buy for example an air conditioner or a generator, no doubt they all claim to cool a room and provide electricity respectively, but it is up to me to determine exactly which model I need to suit my conditions.

Similarly for a PC monitor bracket. The listing says it holds a 4 PC monitors, however it is up to me to check that the screw hole configuration is suitable for the monitors that I have.

So my question is, if the seller did not specify which appliances it would operate, (although later you said he did, so I am a bit confused there) and the fact that it is unlikely that he knows what appliances you wanted to run, then how has he misdescribed the item?

You needed to do your research and you needed to ask questions, there's a saying about what happens when people assume things.

In a court, you would lose, for you I hope that you don't, with PayPal but this woiuld be very unfair on the seller.

Re: Item not as described

j*oono — Thu, 23 Jan 2014 16:09:33 GMT

@crikey*mate wrote:
unfortunately, the seller's description is vague enough to prevent you from claiming "significantly not as described". He did not state that it operated ALL appliances, only that it did operate appliances.

The time to research the product is before you commit to buy it, so you needed to do this and confirm with the seller which appliances it did operate.
You needed to do your research and you needed to ask questions, there's a saying about what happens when people assume things.

In a court, you would lose, for you I hope that you don't, with PayPal but this woiuld be very unfair on the seller.

Fortunately this is not a court of law and ebay needs to have a look at how the seller has guidelines on whether this electrical piece of equipment can be used with your appliances and whether it is safe to do so. I would look into that and I would report the seller (not to ebay) if their appliances did not meet safety standards.

Re: Item not as described

cq_tech — Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:49:08 GMT

I believe the listing to be misleading inasmuch as a square wave output cannot be even remotely described as a sine wave (and what the hell do they mean by "modified sine wave" anyway?).

I notice that other sellers list their inverters as "pure sine wave" which should be unnecessary, as it's either a sine wave or it's not, and it's on that particular basis that I'd be claiming that the inverter is significantly not as described.

From a technical point of view, it's really no different from describing the earth as being round, when in fact it is not; it's an oblate spheroid.

You may have some difficulty in finding somebody at Paypal who comprehends the difference between a sine wave and a square wave (which your seller -and others- calls a "modified sine wave") but I still think it's worth lodging a dispute, and even if it's ultimately rejected by Paypal, there are other avenues you can take which should result in a satisfactory outcome (the FIO for example).

Re: Item not as described

cq_tech — Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:53:35 GMT

Just a thought; it may help your claim if you were to email or fax Paypal a photograph of your inverter's square wave output on an oscilloscope, along with an image of what a true sine wave looks like, as they clearly wouldn't have a clue.

Re: Item not as described

audistarelectronics — Thu, 23 Jan 2014 22:07:29 GMT

Thanks for the ideas, yes, I will put it through the cro and do some pics. I have a feeling that this unit has a very ''filthy'' output also, as even running lighting the lamps have a slight flicker. With my background in electronics, I should have been more savvy with the purchase, but my field was different to power and invertors, and trusted the sellers description as we all do when using ebay. I may decide to persue this one to the end, but if postage is my cop, it may be better to learn from it. It wasn't a fortune to buy, just that it will be useless to keep, and the proper unit is over $300, so the $109, less the return postage could go towards the new unit....from a different seller I must add. I learnt one big lesson from this, and I hope others could also, that is if a seller of specialized electrical

and solar equipment is also selling other non associated items such as garden tools and the like, do another search and buy from someone who can answer your questions and who knows what they are selling. I must add we have just purchased solar panels from a different supplier, so this seller has certainly lost out .

Re: Item not as described

*crikey*mate* — Thu, 23 Jan 2014 22:46:25 GMT

@j*oono wrote:
@crikey*mate wrote:
unfortunately, the seller's description is vague enough to prevent you from claiming "significantly not as described". He did not state that it operated ALL appliances, only that it did operate appliances.

The time to research the product is before you commit to buy it, so you needed to do this and confirm with the seller which appliances it did operate.
You needed to do your research and you needed to ask questions, there's a saying about what happens when people assume things.

In a court, you would lose, for you I hope that you don't, with PayPal but this woiuld be very unfair on the seller.

Fortunately this is not a court of law and ebay needs to have a look at how the seller has guidelines on whether this electrical piece of equipment can be used with your appliances and whether it is safe to do so. I would look into that and I would report the seller (not to ebay) if their appliances did not meet safety standards.

Unfortunately, PayPal has to follow the law, so realistically, regardless of if this is a court or not, the courts and the law are pretty much in everybody's face.

Unfortunately, it is not eBay who issues refunds and decides cases, even if their policies could override the law.

The seller does NOT specify which appliances the item works with.

Just as different batteries operate different items, this is no different.

Batteries operate appliances, but without knowing what appliances a person has, how could a seller know if the battery he sells operates that one. In the absence of seeking qualified advice/recommendations, (recall the buyer asked no questions), It is up to the consumer to determine what they need.

Re: Item not as described

audistarelectronics — Thu, 23 Jan 2014 23:31:42 GMT

Point taken, but with invertors, the consumer would be entitled to believe that as they supply ''electricity'', that it should operate any electrical appliance up to the wattage rating of the invertor. Batteries are a different thing because as we all know, there are hundreds of different batteries to suit hundreds of different appliances, so we must choose the correct one, voltage, size, contact points all come into play. But with electricity, as far as I'm aware, there is only one type in Aust, 240volts ac, at a frequency of 50 hertz..

This is where an invertor with a poor quality output causes trouble, the 50 hz is not accurate enough in a ''modified inverter, so any induction motors can be damaged as they use the ac frequency to operate the magnetic field changes. I will put this to rest anyway, and buy from decent suppliers in future. Thanks for all help given.