topic Re: How do you get ebay to take action in relation to misuse of bid retractions in Buying

How do you get ebay to take action in relation to misuse of bid retractions

gutterpunkz05 — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:14:02 GMT

How do you get ebay to take action against members misusing bid retractions to corrupt the bidding process. IE; Make winning

bid to ascertain underbidders maximum, then retract bid and place bid equal to underbidders maximum, therefore leaving

the underbidder as the highest bidder exposed to their maximum bid. I have complained to ebay by phone and email about

one particular bidder who exposed my maximum bid on six seperate items with one seller on 26/1/2014, this bidder has over

280 retracted bids in the last six months. Another two bidders on items from the same seller have also adopted this practice

on items I have bid on, one of these sellers only has a feedback of 17 with 2 bid retractions and a 100% trading record with

this one seller. To date there is no indication that ebay intends to act on my complaints as all items remained active with no

bid cancellations. As far as I am aware this practice is against ebay rules and possibly illegal as is shill bidding.

Does this seem suspect or have I just been extremely unlucky to experience this on such a scale. I am considering refusing

to pay for items until I receive some feedback from ebay relating to my complaints, but when I complained by phone they

refused to give me a report or case number and stated I would not be advised of the results of any ebay investigation.

HELP.... any advise would be much appreciated

Re: How do you get ebay to take action in relation to misuse of bid retractions

ozcraftsptyltd — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 11:16:13 GMT

Most things on eBay are automated to the point that there is no potential for commonsense to prevail when you complain. I sympathise - though I think you have been very unlucky to strike the problem to that extent. The only thing I can suggest is to not bid early - wait till the sale is nearly over, then place your bid. Within the last 30 seconds is best if you want to avoid being gazumped. I think that's the way the most experienced bidders operate - from my experience as a seller.

Re: How do you get ebay to take action in relation to misuse of bid retractions

gutterpunkz05 — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 11:45:18 GMT

Yeah I know, but I am not a particular fan of sniping. Your not wrong about commonsense, and try complaining about a member

when you only know them as a fellow bidder Initial***Initial. Via phone not too bad, but by the automated email system has

to be reported under rules as computer will not allow without the full user name. Was intending to potential spend rather

big with this particular seller, but am now looking to run a mile. Even if the seller is not connected with these bidders, (shill bidding)

surely they must be able to see that the bidding process has been seriously corrupted

If ebay is unwilling or unable to police there own rules then it is only a matter of time before everyone adopts this practice, then

lets see how long ebay continues to operate for. There is something seriously wrong here.

Re: How do you get ebay to take action in relation to misuse of bid retractions

padi*0409 — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 11:56:35 GMT

I know exactly how frustrating this one is, I opened a thread on the exact same subject just before xmas.

Both my seller and myself reported the buyer doing the retractions by phone to eBay, they said it was in the hands of "trust and safety", despite that in mid january the buyer was still doing it, I phoned again and eBay said "trust and safety" were still looking into it!!!!!!!!!

Back in December the buyer had 155 retractions in 30 days and a staggering 822 in total.

I know the buyer is still doing it, (63 in 30days and 874 in total) she tried it again with my seller when he then put her on his BBL.

Good luck with getting any action at all out of eBay, I'm convinced they just don't care, I mean how hard is it for them to restrict or close the buyer's account.

GRRRRR

Re: How do you get ebay to take action in relation to misuse of bid retractions

springyzone — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 12:19:31 GMT

I have complained to ebay by phone and email about

one particular bidder who exposed my maximum bid on six seperate items with one seller on 26/1/2014, this bidder has over

280 retracted bids in the last six months. Another two bidders on items from the same seller have also adopted this practice

on items I have bid on, one of these sellers only has a feedback of 17 with 2 bid retractions and a 100% trading record with

this one seller.

Suss, suss, suss, for sure, especially that first one. You would think as soon as you got on the phone and ebay looked into it, that bidder would have been kicked off.

I can't see any reason why someone should be able to rack up 280 bid retractions in 6 months, that is abusing the process.

If ebay can't see that, then they are blind.

Re: How do you get ebay to take action in relation to misuse of bid retractions

padi*0409 — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 12:44:20 GMT

@springyzone wrote:

I can't see any reason why someone should be able to rack up 280 bid retractions in 6 months, that is abusing the process.
If ebay can't see that, then they are blind.

Unfortunately springy, it looks like they are - or else "trust and safety" simply don't exist any longer....

I've started looking a bit more carefully at the bids/bid retractions since I first noticed the one I was talking about - I haven't come across another like the one I unearthed, but obviously there are buyers that are doing it - and apparently getting away with it.

I agree with you the one in the OP's case definitely looks suss.

Perhaps "trust and safety" should have the microscope put on them, since they're seemingly not doing the job they're paid for.

Re: How do you get ebay to take action in relation to misuse of bid retractions

gutterpunkz05 — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 12:46:18 GMT

those figures are scary, I thought 280 odd in six months should be ringing alarm bells. I copped 6 in less than 2 hours, and on top of that they ran me to my limit on a number of other items by legitimate means, numerous small bids. have been forced to

pay absolute maximum on every item won and on items they win they win by one cent every time. Might just have to start

making outrageous bids and refusing to pay, see if that gets ebays attention

Re: How do you get ebay to take action in relation to misuse of bid retractions

gutterpunkz05 — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 12:57:41 GMT

I forgot to say you got further by phone than I did (Trust & Safety). All I got was I,ll speak to a supervisor.

Re: How do you get ebay to take action in relation to misuse of bid retractions

padi*0409 — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 13:08:40 GMT

@gutterpunkz05 wrote:
I forgot to say you got further by phone than I did (Trust & Safety). All I got was I,ll speak to a supervisor.

Not really, I spoke to a supervisor both times, and the second time asked to be put through to "trust and safety" - but guess what, they don't take calls...........................

Yes the figures are scarey, but what is more alarming is that eBay is seemingly taking no notice of members reports of auction manipulation - that's the one that will drive people away from eBay auctions.

There are quite a few areas where eBay's dropped the ball lately, scammers in particular spings to mind, along with the usual shonky Chinese sellers (who are ruining the reputation of the good ones...........)

Re: How do you get ebay to take action in relation to misuse of bid retractions

lyndal1838 — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 13:57:53 GMT

gutterpunkz05 wrote: Might just have to start
making outrageous bids and refusing to pay, see if that gets ebays attention

That will get ebay's attention alright but you cn be pretty sure that every time you do it you will get a strike against you account and you will very quickly find yourself banned from buying from a lot of sellers who have their blocks in place?

Is it really worth risking your own account just to get ebay's attention and to prove a point?

Re: How do you get ebay to take action in relation to misuse of bid retractions

gutterpunkz05 — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 15:07:31 GMT

Probably not worth it, but that has never stopped me from making a point in the past.. So hang on, I'll get banned if I refuse to pay,

Oh thats right ebay wont be able to collect their commission. Does not matter that their inaction is costing me money. Ebay is

making plenty of money out of their commission for providing a service to buyers and sellers alike. They also have a duty to uphold

their own rules and that all transactions fall within the law. at the moment it would appear thay they are not holding up to their

obligations, so why should I ensure they receive their commission

Re: How do you get ebay to take action in relation to misuse of bid retractions

*crikey*mate* — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 18:44:06 GMT

a bid is an offer. An offer can be withdrawn at any time prior to acceptance (the end of the auction) THAT is the law. At this stage, no legally binding contract has been formed. (Though eBay policy does say 12 hours, which forms part of the contract you form with them)

Once the auction has finished with a winning bidder/BIN committment, a legally binding contract has been foirmed between the seller and the buyer. This has nothing to do with eBay. They are an outside party to the contract and cannot enmforce that the contract be honoured.

Failure to pay for the item that you won, puts you in breach of contract for non performance.

Re: How do you get ebay to take action in relation to misuse of bid retractions

gutterpunkz05 — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 19:50:29 GMT

Beg to differ, ebay has been advised that the bidding process has been corrupted before the auctions have finished, some

items stil active. Ebay has taken no action to cancel the relevant auctions and/or the relevant bids that have corrupted the process.

It is also a very big likelyhood that shill bidding is also involved, a highly illegal practice and suposedly frowned upon by ebay. It could also be argued that ebay via their inaction are compliciit to an offence, In any event I can refuse to pay and have the matter

disputed. Actually I would like to see ebay attempt to persue a breach of contract in relation to this matter as I am sure they would relish the world wide media attention. Not

Re: How do you get ebay to take action in relation to misuse of bid retractions

springyzone — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 21:46:07 GMT

bid is an offer. An offer can be withdrawn at any time prior to acceptance (the end of the auction) THAT is the law. At this stage, no legally binding contract has been formed. (Though eBay policy does say 12 hours, which forms part of the contract you form with them)

----------------------

I am sure you are right and ebay has to accept that someone can retract an offer.

However, ebay should have the right to decide if a person can stay a registered member of ebay.

They may not be able to overturn a retraction and I assume it wouldn't matter if they did, the bidder would just refuse to pay.

But they could make it a ruling that a certain number of retractions in a certain period would result in a ban of some sort-either permanent or for a set period.

I know people trot out the argument that people on ebay should only bid what they are willing to pay, but just imagine if you had a real estate company where the papers got hold of the fact that a friend of one of the auctioneers had ben going round to every house auction, and bid and bid against others till the other interested parties refused any counter bid, then our little man promptly withdrew his last bid.

I doubt the papers and potential customers would be saying oh well, it is perfectly legal to withdraw a bid (even if it is). It would cause a stink and that agent would have to lift their game or risk losing custom.

Ebay can't stop people retratcing but they can decide if someone is dodgy and suspend the account.

Re: How do you get ebay to take action in relation to misuse of bid retractions

phorum_junkie* — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 22:12:36 GMT

Rather than phone, which is the best way for most things, the seller is better off using the report an item link on the listing, for excessive bid retractions that will go straight to Trust & Safety and they certainly do suspend members for excessive bid retractions.There have been members who have had their bidding privileges withdrawn for as few as 4 retractions in as many months. A few weeks ago I reported a bidder who had about 10 retractions as she had picked the wrong bid amount and not rebid straight away, I don't know if it was coincidence or not but from being a prolific buyer she was suddenly purchasing nothing so I assumed action had been taken.

As a buyer I never check the bidding history, I either put my max in straight away or I set a snipe, either way I am getting the item at what I consider a fair price or I don't win.

Re: How do you get ebay to take action in relation to misuse of bid retractions

*crikey*mate* — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 22:25:41 GMT

@gutterpunkz05 wrote:
Beg to differ, Don't skin your knees.

ebay has been advised that the bidding process has been corrupted before the auctions have finished, some
items stil active. This needs to be proven and it needs to be proven through a legal process, not an anonymous person who points the finger and makes an accusation.

Ebay has taken no action to cancel They have no grounds for cancellation without proof.

the relevant auctions and/or the relevant bids that have corrupted the process. The bidding/trading process are between the buyer and seller - eBay has nothing to do with this and it is in fact illegal for them to act on a contract of which they have no part,

It is also a very big likelyhood that shill bidding is also involved, again, proof of this is required. It doesn't matter what we think, know or believe, it only mattrers what we can prove.

a highly illegal practice and suposedly frowned upon by ebay. see above

It could also be argued that ebay via their inaction are compliciit to an offence, no it can't, as no offence has been established through legal channels. It is not up to you to decide when a crime has been committed.

In any event I can refuse to pay and have the matter
disputed. Well, of course you can refuse toi pay, but failure to honour the contract between yourself and the seller will result in breach of contract and THAT can easily be proven in court, should the seller choose to do so. Or the seller can go through the UID process, issue with a strike and there is diddlysquat that either you or eBay can do anything about it because the fact remains, you breached your contract by not paying for an item you committed to purchase.

Actually I would like to see ebay attempt to persue a breach of contract in relation to this matter as I am sure they would relish the world wide media attention. Not The breach of contract for sale of goods, has NOTHING to do with eBay whatsoever. The contract of sale is between the buyer and the seller. BTW, bigger people than you have taken action against eBay LOL - several of the cases are landmark cases which establish some of the foundational laws of online and electronic auction trading and taught in first year law school.

I would like to take this opportunity to warmly encourage you to take the time to read the eBay User Agreement, and their Terms and Conditions of use.

If for no other reason than you have formed a contract with eBay and acknowledged that you have read and understood it which is blatantly apparent that you have not.

I will conclude, that you need to understand something.

There are two different contracts on foot here.

1) The contract between you and eBay.

2) The contract between the buyer and the seller.

Re: How do you get ebay to take action in relation to misuse of bid retractions

go-tazz — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 22:39:21 GMT

Ebay can't stop people retracting but they can decide if someone is dodgy and suspend the account.

But they wont,

Last year I reported a number of scammers and shill bidders and in the first three months they where being

removed or sanctioned,

Since then scammers haven't been removed and not a single shill bidder has been sanctioned,(One was reported

weekly for three months and never had any action taken against them),

Trust & Safety has been severely scaled back or no longer exists,(they may have got rid of them as they don't care

that members get ripped off so why do they need them),

IMHO,Reporting anything that makes money for this site is a waste of time,(as there will be

no action taken),

Re: How do you get ebay to take action in relation to misuse of bid retractions

*crikey*mate* — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 23:17:32 GMT

@springyzone wrote:
bid is an offer. An offer can be withdrawn at any time prior to acceptance (the end of the auction) THAT is the law. At this stage, no legally binding contract has been formed. (Though eBay policy does say 12 hours, which forms part of the contract you form with them)
----------------------
I am sure you are right and ebay has to accept that someone can retract an offer. well, thAt is he law.

However, ebay should have the right to decide if a person can stay a registered member of ebay. Yes, they should, and they do, but I daresay that because of the type of business that it is, they would have to have a pretty strong factual case for exclusion.

They may not be able to overturn a retraction and I assume it wouldn't matter if they did, the bidder would just refuse to pay.
But they could make it a ruling that a certain number of retractions in a certain period would result in a ban of some sort-either permanent or for a set period. It's a bid hard to do that though when the law imposes no such restrictions. They can however word it as they do in a way that the "avwerage person" may believe that they can, eBay is a publc company, not a private one, (I also bring to your attention here theiur "official" wording surrounding feedback - no where do they state it is voluntary, they just kind of imply that you're supposed to do it.

I know people trot out the argument that people on ebay should only bid what they are willing to pay, but just imagine if you had a real estate company where the papers got hold of the fact that a friend of one of the auctioneers had ben going round to every house auction, and bid and bid against others till the other interested parties refused any counter bid, then our little man promptly withdrew his last bid. The laws surrounding property are very different, however this does happen all the time, It's just a different name, a person secures a conditional contract "subject to building inspection, or finance etc", and can tip a contract at any time before settlement. The purchase of goods on eBay are not conditional.

Plus, there is a big leap here "knowing" it is a "mate" and "assuming" it is a mate".

I doubt the papers and potential customers would be saying oh well, it is perfectly legal to withdraw a bid (even if it is). It would cause a stink and that agent would have to lift their game or risk losing custom.

Ebay can't stop people retratcing but they can decide if someone is dodgy and suspend the account. Well, know they can't. They can decide if someone is not metting their required levels of performance, but on their own, withoiut legal ruling, they cannot decide that someone is "dodgy". Opens up all sorts of avenues for defamation, cos they need proof, and the law does not give eBay the right to determine what constiotutes proof.

It is important that everyone reads the User Agreement and understands exactly what it is that eBay6 is and what service they actually claim to provide.

All the rest, the policies etc, it's about brand protection and marketing, but they have to weigh all of that up with what the law allows them to do,

Re: How do you get ebay to take action in relation to misuse of bid retractions

padi*0409 — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 23:43:44 GMT

Invalid Bid Retraction

A bid is a binding contract. All bids are active until the auction ends. If you win a listing, you're obliged to complete the transaction. Except under special circumstances, bid retraction is not permitted. Furthermore, misuse of the bid retraction option to manipulate the bidding process is not permitted. This includes any manipulation of the bidding process to discover the maximum bid of the current high bidder or to uncover the reserve price.

Violations of this policy may result in a range of actions, including:

Listing cancellation
Limits on account privileges
Account suspension
Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings
Loss of PowerSeller status

From the horse's mouth on bid retractions Crikey, it's set out pretty clearly in black and white (ROFL with shades of grey.......)

I'm with Tazz on this, eBay's dropped the ball and no longer seems to take any action on members flouting the rules, especially if they are large buyers/sellers.

The small fish will get slapped before they know it, the big ones just carry on regardless.

In my case the buyer was reported both by phone (to a supervisor) and by email, so it appears no matter how the member is reported, little or no action is taken.

Re: How do you get ebay to take action in relation to misuse of bid retractions

gutterpunkz05 — Wed, 29 Jan 2014 00:03:12 GMT

Dear Crikey and others thanks for the replies, may I make it absolutely clear, this is not about the money, as when I set a maximum price for an item I am well and truly prepared to pay whatever I set, Also it is not about being legitimately outbid as I lose more than I win as like myself many others are prepared to part with an arm and a leg for some of the items I chase.

Now Crikey , I supplied ebay via email with the details of every bid, to the second and included full details down to the cent.

One bidder - 6 items - in less than two hours - on every occassion placed a higher bid than my maximum, then retracted the bid

and place a new bid either equal to my maximum to the cent, or outbid me by 1 cent. Ebay would not have had to lift a

finger to reach the same conclusion as I did ( something stinks to high heaven) or else this person has an IQ of less than

20. Then to find the exact same thing occurring with two other bidders with the same seller has rung enough alarm bells with

me , that I will not be bidding on any items listed by that particular seller in the future. Yes people have the right to genuinely

retract a bid, however they do not have the right to retract a bid for the purpose of manipulating or corrupting the bidding

process..

One thing is becoming painfully obvious here though and that is that no matter how intelligent we think we are and how much

law one wants to spruik , no one can answer the original question of how to get ebay to act, so perhaps the chap with the IQ of less than 20 is smarter than us all put together