topic Re: Suspicious private bidding in Buying

Suspicious private bidding

gadaboutpc — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 02:40:49 GMT

Hi folks

Fairly new to ebay buying and have looked through a number of help and support pages and posts for advice on the following scenario but have found nothing concrete so far.

My question is like this....

Over the past week or so I have been looking at folding solar panels from several different ebay stores. (I'm not sure it is appropritate to name them at this time but searching for folding solar panel listings in NSW Australia) should give anyone who is curious about it a clue.) I have noticed that the initial listing prices are always extremely low (under $1.00). The bidders identities are hidden for all of these auctions.

As the bidding on each item starts (and I have bid on a few myself to check this) the bids placed are trumped by an automatic bid placed on the day following the listing. I cannot see the identity of the bidder, but using the "show automatid bids" option shows me the date and time stamp confirming it is the same original bidder. Would a geniune bidder place a first automatic bid (always the day after the lisitng) for a price almost as much as the "buy it now" equivalent?

The bids keep rising until the item is eventually sold for almost the same price as the "Buy it now" prices on the vendors' regular store.

It certainly looks as if the sellers are placing their own bids (shills) the day after their listings to protect themselves from having their products sold at too low a price. I am led to think the unreasonably low starting price also saves them money in listing fees.

I have tried using the "report this item" but the ebay reporting system seems to be pretty limited at best. There doesn't seem to be a way to actually explain the problem and the pre-selected options are not always a perfect match. Ebay doesn't seem to want to get back to anyone with the results of any investigation although they are very quick to start pestering me to fill out a survey asking if my problem was resolved.

My gut tells me to stay away from these suspicious auctions but there really doesn't seem to be any way to prove illegal bidding in this situation. It is just curious that the same pattern keeps repeating on these auctions time after time.

What do the other members here think?

Re: Suspicious private bidding

harley_babes_hoard — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 02:51:38 GMT

If it's the auction with 21 bidders and another with 16 bidders then I don't think what you suspect is happening really is. If you look at those bidders in the listing and look at their other bids you will see that their bid history with that one seller is low, one at 21% and another with 69% that means they are bidding on lots of other items. I find it hard to believe someone shill bidding would be bothered doing this.. All bidders ID's are blocked out these days so that in itself is no warning.

Re: Suspicious private bidding

gadaboutpc — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 03:06:03 GMT

Thanks but I'm not sure we are looking at the same sellers or items.

In all of the auctions I am referring to, the bidders identities are hidden so I cannot see any way to look at what else they have bid on or their history with any particular seller.

I understand what you are saying but unless I'm overlooking something I don't think it helps in this case?

Re: Suspicious private bidding

gadaboutpc — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 03:26:25 GMT

Sorry, perhaps I was unclear. It seems hidden and protected may be different things.

The actual wording on the auctions is

"private listing - bidders' identities protected"

Re: Suspicious private bidding

lyndal1838 — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 05:37:30 GMT

Shill bidders very rarely place one high bid and leave it at that.

The usual practice is to keep placing small bids to force the price up gradually.

A lot of bidders will place a maximum bid just below the BIN price and hope they will get it cheaper. It is quite usual for auction prices to end up very close to the BIN as that is what the market is saying the item is worth.

As for Private Listings....that is set up by the seller, it is nothing to do with the bidders.

Re: Suspicious private bidding

chameleon54 — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 10:52:37 GMT

I had a look and tend to think it looks a bit suss. The way the sellers have set the auctions up, I dont really know how you can check wether they are legit or not. ( some of the more knowlegable people might know how to check the bidding history of private listing auction bidders ) If you are concerned either wait until a more transparent auction comes up or use the "buy it now" option if you are willing to pay the full price.

Re: Suspicious private bidding

gadaboutpc — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 01:56:52 GMT

Thanks for the responses folks.

I've been following a few more of these panels and I would say that the listings are very bloody suspicious. The items are always listed at a very low starting price like a dollar. Freight is usually listed as approximately $25 whereas the buy it now price includes free delivery.
Anywhere from an hour to a day after the listing, a bid is placed for an amount which takes the total price to within about $20 of the buy it now price. Although the bidders identities are protected you can see from the timestamp that it's the original bid that's forcing the price up.
Sometimes there are a number of smaller bids and sometimes there may be only four bids in total but unless the original suspicious bid wins the auction then that the item is usually sold for the equivalent of the buy it now price or within about $20.

I understand that vendors should not be expected to sell the items at a loss, but this to me doesn't look like a true auction.. What it looks like is the vendors are arranging for someone to place bids on their behalf to make sure the prices don't sell for below what they want to sell them for. By listing the items for a dollar rather than a minimum reserve price I believe that they save on listing fees. On a psychological level I suppose it also drags in more suckers to view the item when they think that it might actually be an auction.
The fact that the bidders identities are protected on these items means that there is no way for the ordinarily person to see what is going on.

Yes, in the end I do understand that I don't have to bid on these items and I can go somewhere else. If I can't see that I'm actually bidding against a real person then that's what I will do.

Re: Suspicious private bidding

shepherdsrule — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 05:52:13 GMT

If the seller does not want to sell at a loss or for less than they want, they should start the bidding at a price they are happy with.

i do admit, this auction in particular, looked a little suss, so would personally steer clear.

But, shilling should not hurt a buyer - if you are set on the amount you wish to pay, (think the item is worth) you simply do not allow yourself to get caught up and pay any more than what you think is fair.

Re: Suspicious private bidding

au2014_wate — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 23:53:30 GMT

Totally agree with you, re Private Listings it is actually a set up I'm sure of it.

The ball is in your court E-BAY you should stamp this out. I have not been buying things on E-BAY for that long, I have only just run across this Bidders Identities Protected thing, I dont know if it's been going on all the time or has only recently started.

Re: Suspicious private bidding

2106greencat — Fri, 18 Apr 2014 02:00:38 GMT

Oops - hit Kudo instead of reply.

As stated some sellers use private bidding to protect themselves (high price items etc) and to protect buyers (items of a very personal nature).

As to regular items, all bidders id's are shown as *......* and the only person who can see the actual id is the bidder themselves and the seller.

Why should eBay stamp this out ? No-one is doing anything wrong

Re: Suspicious private bidding

*crikey*mate* — Fri, 18 Apr 2014 04:04:36 GMT

One of the sellers I buy Mickey Mouse watches from also sells adult fetish clothes (with matching diapers) I soooooo wish that his listings weren't private, cos anyone reading through my feedback and then looked at what the seller sells, might think I was buying Bugs Bunny paraphenalia.

ehhhhhh What's up Doc?

Re: Suspicious private bidding

2106greencat — Fri, 18 Apr 2014 06:03:18 GMT

and you would never buy Bugs Bunny paraphanalia would you ?

Mickey Mouse ?

I want that watch !!!

Re: Suspicious private bidding

*crikey*mate* — Fri, 18 Apr 2014 06:52:30 GMT

Definitely not from eBay LOLOLOL

I have quite a few Mickey mouse watches - I collect them. Which one did you have in mind?

Re: Suspicious private bidding

2106greencat — Fri, 18 Apr 2014 06:59:05 GMT

I can't remember now.....

you couldn't just play the game could ya ?

Re: Suspicious private bidding

*crikey*mate* — Fri, 18 Apr 2014 08:44:36 GMT

I was tryin! But I got NFI how Mickey watches fit in with your interpretation of Bugs Bunny Paraphenalia!

*blush*

Re: Suspicious private bidding

davewil1964 — Fri, 18 Apr 2014 10:43:23 GMT

@diamond-halo wrote:
~~I was tryin! But I got NFI how~~ Mickey watches ~~fit in with your interpretation of~~ Bugs Bunny Paraphenalia!

*blush*

Re: Suspicious private bidding

gadaboutpc — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 02:34:12 GMT

@2106Greencat - thanks for your perspective.

I don't know if anyone is doing anything "illegal" but it is certainly open to being "unethical".

Again, the issue is identities being "protected" not simply hidden. (Sorry, my original mistake in describing it). You CANNOT even see *.......* so there is no way to know if that buyer is genuinely following the auction and gradually icreasing their bids like many potential purchasers probably would. The timestamps on these bids suggest they are not.

I cannot imagine how solar panels could be considered to be of a "very personal nature" or what the seller would need protecting from.

Why should ebay stamp this out????

Perhaps because:

a) It is impossible to see if you are bidding against the same bidder for each auction. ie. There is no way to see if the same bidder has pushed the prices up or even more importantly WON many auctions for the same item as a kind of seller's default stop/loss mechanism.

b) It negates the usefulness of the feedback system, since you cannot tie buyers' comments to any particular item. In other words a seller could develop great positive feedback for small items over 6-12 months and then begin fake listings for expensive products. I have seen this happen on multiple occassions with electronics good from Asia for instance. (Though I'm not actually suspecting that in this particular case.)

c) I believe ebay themselves lose money on listing fees if the items are priced at a nonsense starting point like $1.00 when the final selling prices are for $200 and up. (I don't think any responses here have commented/confirmed that yet.)

Re: Suspicious private bidding

go-tazz — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 23:53:50 GMT

@gadaboutpc wrote:
@2106greencat - thanks for your perspective.

Why should ebay stamp this out????

It makes them extra money so there is noooo!! way that they would stop this,(after it was one of their ideas to

"protect" buyers,(the added benefit is that it stops people reporting shill bidders).

Perhaps because:

That was their plan when they brought it in IMHO,(to hide suspect bidding)

That is exactly how some of the Chinese scammers operate,(eBay has made it easier for them),

The point is that eBay make money on what ever the final price is,(so they aren't concerned with starting prices

and they even tell members to start at 99 cents to gain more interest for their items).

They now offer a lot of free listings so their main concern has shifted to FVF's and trying to get members to list

items at a price that guarantees that it will sell,

Re: Suspicious private bidding

dnnelg9689 — Wed, 09 Jul 2014 22:36:20 GMT

I have bid on an item from the same seller many times and always out bid by a "private listing - bidders' identities protected". This is the only bidder apart from myself. This has happened at least eight times. The private listing - bidders' identities protected cannot have purchased this one item that many times. I am sure these bids are sellers are placing their own bids (shills).

Re: Suspicious private bidding

ooak3 — Thu, 10 Jul 2014 04:15:24 GMT

interesting!! but would"nt that end up costing the seller fees on a no sale if they keep winning it them selves???