topic Re: Does eBay support shill bidding? in Buying

Does eBay support shill bidding?

abaca_1 — Mon, 11 Jan 2016 22:44:53 GMT

Situation: have attempted to buy an item off a seller who repeat lists item ie relists new item each time one is sold.
Listings are private.
I have been 2nd highest bidder 10 out of last 12 listings.
Through a glitch in system using mobile i discovered that i could actually see the scrambled identity of bidders under certain circumstances. I discovered that each time i lost it was to a (0) rated purchaser. Yes this could happen. So i checked the feedback left by seller..they have only once left a feedback giving a (1) rating to a buyer. I also discovered that the bidder that has beaten me each time, placed the winning bid at the same time ie 4 hours prior to items end time.
Any further investigation was hampered/hidden in the fold of "private listing". Armed with this information (plus screen shots of bidding on listings) I informed eBay. I also queried the necessity of private listings since buyer anonimity is protected by the id scrambler they have used for years.
Ebay responded saying private listings were still used for very high priced items (houses Ferrari's etc) or sensitive medical equipment. That is understandable. This item is neither. I proffered my information and was advised that there was not enough to proceed with an investigation.
I think to the contrary.
Private listing should only be available as an option on those categories that require it. Otherwise it doesnt protect the buyer at all. It only allows unscrupulous sellers to hide their shill bidding activities.

Re: Does eBay support shill bidding?

*tippy*toes* — Mon, 11 Jan 2016 23:38:52 GMT

Sellers quite often have multiples of the same item. If they are running auctions, they can only have one of the same item listed at once. Sellers who shill bid don't want to win the auction. It is pointless doing so. They shill bid to increase the price so the ultimate winner pays a higher price. If they are winning all their own auctions, they either lose all the fees paid or they have to keep cancelling the transaction. EBay will start to get suspicious if every transaction ends in a cancellation.

If the buyer you are talking about is a shilling account, they would more than likely cancel their bid prior to the auction ending as they can see by then what your highest bid was. They would then rebid with an amount just under yours so you win the auction at the higher price.

Without actually being able to see the bidding history, it's hard to tell whether there is something underhanded going on.

Re: Does eBay support shill bidding?

boggo58 — Tue, 12 Jan 2016 00:40:05 GMT

Why do people keep posting on here complaining about shill bidding, when there is nothing wrong nor is it against ebay policy.

Re: Does eBay support shill bidding?

falconsportspack — Tue, 12 Jan 2016 01:01:47 GMT

I think you had better refresh your memory on eBay policy boggo. Shill bidding IS against eBay policy.

http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/policies/seller-shill-bidding.html

Re: Does eBay support shill bidding?

kopenhagen5 — Tue, 12 Jan 2016 01:26:45 GMT

In most western countries it is against the law.

New fraud offences in the Fraud Act 2006

The new law

The Fraud Act swept all of the old statutory deception offences away. Instead a new offence of fraud has been defined as follows:

The defendant must have been dishonest, and have intended to make a gain or to cause a loss to another.
In addition, the defendant must carry out one of these acts:

Making a false or misleading representation.

Failing to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose.

Abusing a position of trust.

The new offence of fraud is intended to be wide and also flexible, particularly as technology changes.

There is no reliance on the concept of "deception". It does not matter whether the false information actually deceives anyone, it is the misleading intention which counts.

The offence of conspiracy to defraud has not been abolished, but the government's objective is that reliance on it by prosecutors should be very much less.

The impact of the change

What will the impact on business of the new act? This will probably not be very profound outside the criminal law enforcement field, but several areas should be highlighted:

The Fraud Act could be used to criminalise conduct which may previously only have amounted to a breach of contract or other civil law or moral obligation. Examples may include:

Breach of banking covenants. Where a loan contract contains an obligation by the borrower to draw an event of termination to the attention of the bank, then a failure to do so may now be a fraud.

"Shill bidding" on online auction sites. This is where sellers bid up the price of their own items using a second identity.

Certain advertising practices previously seen as sharp, but not illegal, for example paying for a favourable restaurant or hotel review in a publication which appears at first glance to be independent.

Breach of fiduciary duty by directors; and preferences and transactions at undervalue in insolvency situations.

The Fraud Act significantly limits the right of a defendant to claim privilege against self-incrimination (the right to refuse to disclose documents or give evidence if doing so would expose him to the risk of a criminal prosecution) where he is being charged with a fraud offence.
Finally, there is the money laundering legislation. As a result of the wider offence, the situations where parties may be obliged by the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 to report suspicious transactions to the authorities have been increased.

Re: Does eBay support shill bidding?

gladman5316 — Tue, 12 Jan 2016 02:11:11 GMT

You could make your best and only bid in the last few seconds of the auction, not giving shill bidders the opportunity to drive up the price or outbid you.

I usually bid late in the auction and I choose not to bid against new members, bidders with 0 feedback or if I see suspect patterns in previous bids. I would not purchase from the seller if I suspected shill bidding.

Re: Does eBay support shill bidding?

lyndal1838 — Tue, 12 Jan 2016 02:26:25 GMT

Why would you choose not to bid against new buyers/0 feedback members if the price is still within the range of what you want to pay?

Quite often I find new bidders tend to use the bidding increments suggested by ebay and what you see is their highest bid. I often find I can snipe an item from a newbie with a bid of a few cents more than what is showing.

Re: Does eBay support shill bidding?

abaca_1 — Tue, 12 Jan 2016 05:34:22 GMT

I appreciate the comments about shill bidding portion of my question. It is apparent that most are aware of its presence and its illegality as well as poor practice. But the second portio n and my primary concern is eBays supporr of it by not removing private listings. The original purpose of private listings was to protect the identity of the purchaser of an item so they would not be targeted by unscrupulous people. However since the inception scrambled buyer identities this is no longer the case.
Ebay is aware that sellers can hide behind private listings for shill bidding, i have made sure of that. But lets address a couple of other faults and barriers private listings hide.
1. Details of items seller receives other than positive feedback on.(whether for poor quality, postage time,
2. Average pricing items sell for.
3. Buyers that sellers actually leave feedback for + item.

And regarding suggestions. I have bid maximum amount i wish to pay, I have bid last second, I have even bid on excess of what I would pay. The only times I dudnt lose ti a (0) rated buyer was when the price went over a certain price, which would equate to retail price...and then woukd gave to pay postage. If the seller wants that price why dont they just post it at that price, and I wouldnt wate my time. That is how I list.

Re: Does eBay support shill bidding?

kopenhagen5 — Tue, 12 Jan 2016 06:57:45 GMT

Valid points abaca, but rather than try to educate eBay to better business practices, many of us long time eBayers gave up, learnt and teach others that it is caveat emptor (buyer beware).

Therefore I and others simply don't bid on private listings anymore especially if the item doesn't warrant a private auction.

Re: Does eBay support shill bidding?

lyndal1838 — Tue, 12 Jan 2016 07:29:15 GMT

@abaca_1 wrote:

And regarding suggestions. I have bid maximum amount i wish to pay, I have bid last second, I have even bid on excess of what I would pay. The only times I dudnt lose ti a (0) rated buyer was when the price went over a certain price, which would equate to retail price...and then woukd gave to pay postage. If the seller wants that price why dont they just post it at that price, and I wouldnt wate my time. That is how I list.

To be honest, what you are describing here does not sound like shill bidding. The idea of shill bidding is not to win the item but to forc the price up.

I would suggest that if 0 feedback buyers are winning items when you snipe at the last moment then they really want to win the item and are not forcing the price up for the seller.

A lot of members don't really now what to look for in shill bidding and just assume that every 0 feedback account that wins anything is a shill bidder.

Re: Does eBay support shill bidding?

imastawka — Tue, 12 Jan 2016 07:33:52 GMT

A shill bidder is certainly not going to bid at the last second.

That defeats the purpose of shill bidding.

Your zero bidders want to win

Re: Does eBay support shill bidding?

chameleon54 — Tue, 12 Jan 2016 07:53:24 GMT

@lyndal1838 wrote:
@abaca_1 wrote:

And regarding suggestions. I have bid maximum amount i wish to pay, I have bid last second, I have even bid on excess of what I would pay. The only times I dudnt lose ti a (0) rated buyer was when the price went over a certain price, which would equate to retail price...and then woukd gave to pay postage. If the seller wants that price why dont they just post it at that price, and I wouldnt wate my time. That is how I list.
To be honest, what you are describing here does not sound like shill bidding. The idea of shill bidding is not to win the item but to forc the price up.
I would suggest that if 0 feedback buyers are winning items when you snipe at the last moment then they really want to win the item and are not forcing the price up for the seller.
A lot of members don't really now what to look for in shill bidding and just assume that every 0 feedback account that wins anything is a shill bidder.

Whilst not strictly shill bidding, this sounds a lot like bait advertising. The seller lists the item with a low starting price that they have no intention of selling the item for. Bidders scramble in hoping to snare a bargain. For most of the auction, they believe they may actually buy the item at a cheap price and then four hours before auction ends the seller uses a second account to bid a higher price ( the sellers reserve price ). Buyers by then are keen and some inexperienced buyers may be tempted to keep bidding. until they win the auction.

This practice was common in the real estate industry until it was made illegal a couple of years ago. Personally I think it is similar to shill bidding and probably just as unethical.

Re: Does eBay support shill bidding?

wornandnew24 — Tue, 19 Dec 2017 01:43:55 GMT

This is classic shill bidding on eBay Au, probably from a community using family members to inflate the price to ridiculas levels.
This is the worst example of shill bidding I have come across. Bidding starting at a 99c bid and 2 bidders with low feedback, bidding every few minutes to raise the price. The finale, is a bidder with 0 feedback jacking the price up by 100's of dollars for no reason! Now that this inflated price is reached, the seller waits for sucker legit bidders like ourselves to complete the sale and of course the final shill bidder will pull out of bidding.

I have reported this infringement to eBay, but because this is a high profile seller with over 40 items for sale and over 1300 followers,
probably nothing will eventuate. Always check the bidding pattern, before you place a bid. See for yourself the bidding pattern below.

Bidder Click here to know more about anonymous user IDs Bid Amount Bid Time
j***5 ( 122Feedback score is 100 to 499) AU $405.00
19-Dec-17 09:20:24 AEDST

u***v ( 0 ) AU $400.00
19-Dec-17 03:42:33 AEDST

u***v ( 0 ) AU $200.00
19-Dec-17 03:42:29 AEDST

u***v ( 0 ) AU $190.00
19-Dec-17 03:42:20 AEDST

i***0 ( 24Feedback score is 10 to 49) AU $180.00
18-Dec-17 23:56:56 AEDST

r***a ( 2 ) AU $175.00
19-Dec-17 03:25:09 AEDST

r***a ( 2 ) AU $170.00
19-Dec-17 03:25:05 AEDST

r***a ( 2 ) AU $165.00
19-Dec-17 03:25:03 AEDST

r***a ( 2 ) AU $160.00
19-Dec-17 03:24:58 AEDST

r***a ( 2 ) AU $155.00
19-Dec-17 03:24:54 AEDST

r***a ( 2 ) AU $150.00
19-Dec-17 03:24:50 AEDST

r***a ( 2 ) AU $145.00
19-Dec-17 03:24:48 AEDST

r***a ( 2 ) AU $140.00
19-Dec-17 03:24:37 AEDST

r***a ( 2 ) AU $130.00
19-Dec-17 03:24:30 AEDST

r***a ( 2 ) AU $125.00
19-Dec-17 03:24:27 AEDST

r***a ( 2 ) AU $120.00
19-Dec-17 03:24:22 AEDST

i***0 ( 24Feedback score is 10 to 49) AU $100.00
18-Dec-17 22:45:40 AEDST

4***2 ( 5 ) AU $100.00
19-Dec-17 03:18:46 AEDST

4***2 ( 5 ) AU $94.00
19-Dec-17 03:18:35 AEDST

4***2 ( 5 ) AU $92.00
19-Dec-17 03:18:32 AEDST

4***2 ( 5 ) AU $90.00
19-Dec-17 03:18:26 AEDST

4***2 ( 5 ) AU $84.00
19-Dec-17 03:18:14 AEDST

4***2 ( 5 ) AU $82.00
19-Dec-17 03:18:02 AEDST

4***2 ( 5 ) AU $80.00
19-Dec-17 03:17:59 AEDST

4***2 ( 5 ) AU $78.00
19-Dec-17 03:17:53 AEDST

4***2 ( 5 ) AU $76.00
19-Dec-17 03:17:44 AEDST

4***2 ( 5 ) AU $74.00
19-Dec-17 03:17:36 AEDST

4***2 ( 5 ) AU $72.00
19-Dec-17 03:17:33 AEDST

4***2 ( 5 ) AU $70.00
19-Dec-17 03:17:28 AEDST

4***2 ( 5 ) AU $68.00
19-Dec-17 03:17:24 AEDST

4***2 ( 5 ) AU $66.00
19-Dec-17 03:17:21 AEDST

4***2 ( 5 ) AU $64.00
19-Dec-17 03:17:18 AEDST

4***2 ( 5 ) AU $62.00
19-Dec-17 03:17:16 AEDST

4***2 ( 5 ) AU $60.00
19-Dec-17 03:17:13 AEDST

4***2 ( 5 ) AU $58.00
19-Dec-17 03:17:10 AEDST

4***2 ( 5 ) AU $56.00
19-Dec-17 03:17:07 AEDST

4***2 ( 5 ) AU $54.00
19-Dec-17 03:17:03 AEDST

4***2 ( 5 ) AU $52.00
19-Dec-17 03:17:00 AEDST

0***w ( 164Feedback score is 100 to 499) AU $50.00
18-Dec-17 22:33:48 AEDST

i***0 ( 24Feedback score is 10 to 49) AU $33.00
18-Dec-17 22:45:11 AEDST

a***g ( 136Feedback score is 100 to 499) AU $30.00
18-Dec-17 22:42:09 AEDST

f***0 ( 70Feedback score is 50 to 99) AU $23.87
18-Dec-17 22:29:13 AEDST

Starting Price AU $0.99
18-Dec-17 21:54:12 AEDST
If two people bid the same amount, the first bid has priority. Also, you can only retract your bid under certain circumstances. Learn more.

Re: Does eBay support shill bidding?

lyndal1838 — Tue, 19 Dec 2017 02:41:17 GMT

So which bidder is the shill bidder and how do you know?

They are both low feedback members. How many bids have they placed with this seller and on how many items? What percentage of their bids are with this seller.

There is a lot more to shill bidding than just 2 members who want to win the same item, which is what this looks like to me without any other information.

Re: Does eBay support shill bidding?

go-tazz — Tue, 19 Dec 2017 04:18:57 GMT

The information for a shill bidder is all in the bids count,(go to the item in question and click on the number of

bids and click on the account ID that you think is doing the shilling:).

Above is a blatant shill bidder that eBay will not remove.

It's an absolutely waste of time reporting a shill bidder as this site doesn't have the integrity or will to remove

them as a shill bidder increases the amount of FVF that this site gets from those fraudulent accounts.

Two newish accounts nibble bidding is not shill bidding.

And:

Re: Does eBay support shill bidding?

wornandnew24 — Wed, 20 Dec 2017 00:49:36 GMT

Get serious! What do you call a bidder, who raises the bid from $180 to $400 and then disappears into the sunset! Definately not genuine.

Re: Does eBay support shill bidding?

lyndal1838 — Wed, 20 Dec 2017 04:46:16 GMT

I certainly do not call them a shill bidder without taking other factors into account.

Maybe that bidder disappeared into the sunset as you put it because they had reached the limit of what they were prepared to bid.

Re: Does eBay support shill bidding?

abaca_1 — Wed, 20 Dec 2017 05:32:58 GMT

Tell me lyndal1838...why are you so defensive ...is it because you are self justifying the fact that you use private listings?

Re: Does eBay support shill bidding?

abaca_1 — Wed, 20 Dec 2017 05:43:13 GMT

Any practice using a second account to artificially raise the buying price of an item is shill bidding. Your example if real estate is totally out of place as it Is a Sellers right to enter a starting bid or a sellersbid at anytime in the auction if it stagnated or other reasons....however the placement of Dummy bidders is just illegal as It Is ON eBay.

Re: Does eBay support shill bidding?

davewil1964 — Wed, 20 Dec 2017 05:57:49 GMT

Lyndal doesn't have any listings. Lyndal has private feedback, which only a buyer can have. As you would know if you understood how eBay worked.