topic Re: Dispute resolution in Buying

Dispute resolution

freightcar2009 — Sat, 30 Jun 2012 04:55:21 GMT

Over 2 months ago I purchased a camping knife from a seller. To date it hasn't arrived so I have been trying to contact them to see what the delay is.

No response. Now I can't even seem to send them any messages or will they talk to me at all.

Because I paid with Pay Pal I decided to put in a dispute resolution. Instantly the reply was to contact the seller and the dispute was closed! No questions asked they just closed everything down.

I can’t find any way to talk to E-Bay or to progress this any further.

The amount is not much however the principle is huge... Pay Pal offers peace of mind however they don't care..... EBay talk about ethics but have not it seems.

What should I do next regarding this as it is important. I always make sure I Pay instantly, I never buy anything unless I have the money or talk to the seller and make arrangements if I win the Auction.

What rights do I have and what legal avenues do I have available to me?

Re: Dispute resolution

newstart2380 — Sat, 30 Jun 2012 05:02:34 GMT

You have 45 days to open a dispute and as much as I have sympathy for you I feel you should have not left it so long, after 45 days you will probably not get any assistance from PP or EBay.

I agree, sometimes it is more about principal than money as long as it is not to much.

Re: Dispute resolution

lyndal1838 — Sat, 30 Jun 2012 05:10:33 GMT

Two months is way outside the ebay/paypal dispute time frame. There is nothing you can do now.

Where was he knife coming from? If it was an overseas purchase you may find it is a prohibited import and has been seized by Customs. Nothing you can do about that either.

Re: Dispute resolution

foxette-in-sox — Sat, 30 Jun 2012 07:19:14 GMT

Pay Pal offers peace of mind however they don't care

Totally false-the email from them when you make payment CLEARLY states you only have 45 days in which to open a case if there's an issue so why did you ignore that?You also receive a reminder from ebay.

ONLY option now is if you funded your Paypal payment via credit card you could try doing a chargeback through your bank.

Re: Dispute resolution

tall_bearded — Sun, 01 Jul 2012 20:49:43 GMT

How do you know you didn’t receive it.

That is did you ask for it to be sent registered post or some other secure (receipted) delivery means or did you just pay for regular post. Then if you did pay for regular post, what kind of secure storage do you have in place to ensure the item is secured if it is delivered when you’re not home.

Here are a few things you may want to keep in mind for the future

It is your, the buyers’, responsibility to insure the item whilst it is in transit.

PayPal is a Recovery Advocacy Service and not Insurance.

Extract PayPal Buyer Protection Policy ‘If the seller presents evidence for an Item Not Received claim that they shipped the goods to your address, we may find in favour of the seller even if you did not receive the goods’. That is, if the seller can prove postage then you have no right of recovery against the seller and these days, PayPal will accept just about any documentary evidence, including an Aust Post receipt that something was sent to the buyers’ postcode as proof of delivery.

Whereas in the past, sellers were prepared to reimburse buyers the cost of lost articles sent by regular post, today they are no longer prepared to do so. This is because, due to improvements in AUST Post’s security procedures, there is now a 90% or better chance any claim for lost articles sent regular post will be rejected on the grounds that Aust Post records confirm the item went missing after it was delivered.

The point, if you buy on line and you can’t afford to loose it, then insure it by having it sent by a secure means (receipted delivery), or if it is sent regular post, that the drop off point is secured by the installation of a safe drop box.

Re: Dispute resolution

patchoo78 — Mon, 02 Jul 2012 03:34:22 GMT

Whereas in the past, sellers were prepared to reimburse buyers the cost of lost articles sent by regular post, today they are no longer prepared to do so.

Regardless if they are prepared to do so, if the seller sends an item regular post, then they will have to refund in the event of an INR dispute, as they can't provide adequate proof that they actually posted the item. It is up to the seller to send the item via Registered Post to ensure they don't lose out on a INR dispute..

Re: Dispute resolution

tall_bearded — Mon, 02 Jul 2012 03:52:26 GMT

Extract Clause 1.6. PayPal Buyer Protection Policy... If the seller presents evidence for an Item Not Received claim that they shipped the goods to your address, we may find in favour of the seller even if you did not receive the goods.

Buyer buys $200 item and on your advice refuses to pay for registered post.

Item is sent regular post (click and send)

Buyer is not home and item is safe dropped.

Buyer gets home but by then someone else has taken advantage of the five finger discount sitting on the front door step.

Buyer lodges PayPal claim

Sell provides proof of postage.

PayPal claim decided in favour or the seller and PayPal decides not to make a discretionary payment to the buyer.

Sort of puts the old ‘PayPal protects the buyer, registered post protects the seller’ in a different perspective.

Re: Dispute resolution

tall_bearded — Mon, 02 Jul 2012 03:56:21 GMT

And just for completeness sake

Now if you look at the Aust Post website you will find that Click and Send is simply a process, a process which provides you with most of the same postal service options as if you had handed the parcel or pack over the counter for processing.

If you use the standard (no frills) click and send option, this allows the item to be safe dropped, which is the same if it had been sent regular post. That is if you want to it signed for at the other end or extra insurance cover, you have to pay for it the same way you would if you has sent it registered post.

But then that not the end of the matter because even if it was sent registered or the Click and Send equivalent, that only insures the item for the first $100, but my example was for an item worth $200. Therefore even if you were correct, if something goes wrong, the buyer is still out of pocket by $100 because they (the buyer failed to pay for the extra insurance.

Then finally of course there is the fact that though initially, PayPal would only accepted receipted delivery services such as registered post as proof of postage, they have over the years been forced to accept others to the extent that today they will now accept just about any documentary proof including an AP receipt showing something was sent to the buyers postcode.

Re: Dispute resolution

phorum_junkie* — Mon, 02 Jul 2012 08:57:21 GMT

Why would a seller who was savvy enough to use click & send use it for a $200 item when the maximum compo is $50 without signature required and $100 without, you cannot pay for extra insurance with click & send?

Re: Dispute resolution

tall_bearded — Mon, 02 Jul 2012 21:20:17 GMT

Savvy sellers maximise profit by minimising expenses, and the cost of registration and extra insurance is a significant expense.

If I prove postage, the buyer has no right of recovery should the item be lost in transit. Be it via the PayPal dispute resolution process or an action in a civil court.

99.9 percent of all goods purchased on eBay are specific goods and are the property of the buyer immediately they have been paid for. Therefore, as they own it, not only is it up to them to insure it against loss or damage whilst it in transit, but also for it’s safekeeping after it has been delivered.

Now, say I sell an item worth $200 and at the time of sale I recommend to the buyer that, because of the significant sum involved, they should register it and pay for additional insurance, but the buyer acting on the advice you and others regularly proffered on these boards responds with, “PayPal protects the buyer, registered post protects the seller”. Therefore if you want it registered with extra insurance you pay for it.

Now as a person who believes old “its your bed, you made it” I decide that I’m not going to pay the cost of registering it let alone the extra insurance, but just in case something goes wrong, as it was paid for by PayPal, I’ll send it by a PayPal approved means, with the process selected being regular post administered via Click and Send.

Now the buyer isn’t home when the parcel is delivered, so it’s safe dropped and someone seizes the opportunity to take a five fingered discount.

A week or so later the buyer e-mails “whereas my parcel”. I check the on line tracking which says it was delivered.

Outcome

Option 1 – I say “oh I’m terribly sorry to hear that”. However, though you chose an insecure delivery service and though you chose not to insure it, “I will reimburse you the full cost of you purchase”. Not likely

Option 2 – I say “oh I’m terribly sorry to hear that. But you did pay by PayPal. So simply get them to compensate you for your loss. The buyer then lodge’s a claim. I provide proof of postage. They decide, as postage is proved there is no right to recover. It’s then up to them (PayPal} to decide if they are going make a discretionary payment but that’s an issue between the buyer and PayPal.

But for what it’s worth, when it comes to significant amounts, PayPal is becoming more and more reluctant to make such payment. That is, it appears, the days of PayPal making such payments, though not over, are most certainly numbered.

Re: Dispute resolution

bsal6160 — Sun, 08 Jul 2012 01:31:03 GMT

Did anyone actually think about the item that was supposed to have been posted. A KNIFE. Mostly likely has not been delivered as AP would stop such a postage item. A weapon and all that stuff. The seller should be banned from Ebay for even selling it on here.

Re: Dispute resolution

freightcar2009 — Sun, 08 Jul 2012 02:57:32 GMT

I received on Friday the item (yes, it was a camping knife) has been ceased by customs.

I am resigned I do not have a claim however I did receive a message from the seller when I purchased the knife there may be a delay while it comes through customs.

It for this reason and my naivety that I didn't chase any one up as to how long it is taking and when I did try to contact the seller I CANNOT contact them.

Going to their store and trying to message them there is no way to contact them... when I go to send message I get a response they are uncontactable...

They are selling many of these things and to be honest they are very similar to what I can buy in store and what I wanted was a titanium camping knife as they are light and weight when hiking is very important and the knife was a bargain....

so I am thinking because of the original email and the fact I cannot contact them this is something that happens often so now I want to know if I should look at what I can do to stop them selling in Australia?

I am sure after looking at some of the things they sell it would be an ongoing problem of people not getting their purchases.

Re: Dispute resolution

lyndal1838 — Sun, 08 Jul 2012 03:22:34 GMT

bsal, how do you think AP would know what was in a parcel posted in Australia? There is no way AP would be able to stop the delivery of anything unless it was an illegal substance or item. They would also have to know about it and there is no way they would unless there was a declaration on the package.

However, Customs can/has stopped the item in question as it was an illegal IMPORT.

OP, there is no reason for the seller to be banned from selling these items on ebay. Obviously they sell Worldwide and not all countries ban knives. It is up to the buyer to know what is allowed to be imported into their own country.

Re: Dispute resolution

phorum_junkie* — Sun, 08 Jul 2012 09:42:58 GMT

Even if you had been within the timeframe for a Paypal dispute you would have lost.

It is entirely up to individual buyers to know the rules for imports into their own country, how could a seller be expected to know that a knife that is allowed into Tanzania is not allowed to enter Tasmania?

It would have been exactly the same if you had tried to bring the knife in through customs at the airport, you would have been stopped and the knife would have been confiscated plus you could have been fined and possibly prosecuted if you did not decalare it.

Re: Dispute resolution

tall_bearded — Sun, 08 Jul 2012 19:39:29 GMT

So I guess you’re saying if I bought a chef knife directly from the manufacturer is say Germany and had it sent to me by post it would be seized as a prohibited import.

Some knives are prohibited imports others are not. There is also a fundamental difference between carrying a knife onto an aircraft and sending it in the mail.

In any event, even if this particular knife was in fact a prohibited import, and had the reason why it had not been received been because it had been seized by customs, then he would have received a customs notice to that effect.

Re: Dispute resolution

rumplebear1951 — Sun, 08 Jul 2012 21:58:28 GMT

I received on Friday the item (yes, it was a camping knife) has been ceased by customs.

They obviously did receive a notice from Customs that it had been seized....ergo it was a prohibited import.

Re: Dispute resolution

bsal6160 — Mon, 09 Jul 2012 10:50:38 GMT

I would like to think that at most major mail centres, ALL mail goes through some form of xray check.

Re: Dispute resolution

lyndal1838 — Mon, 09 Jul 2012 11:51:36 GMT

It does not matter what you like to think bsal. the simple fact is that internal mail is not x-rayed.

If AP were to have that sort of capacity we would never get our mail as it would be so slow and very expensive.