topic Re: USED DIGITAL CAMERA / TECH BUYERS BEWARE in Buying

USED DIGITAL CAMERA / TECH BUYERS BEWARE

many*splendid*things — Fri, 10 Mar 2017 06:28:41 GMT

Hi, I just thought I'd share something of a close call I had yesterday where I was tempted by a digital camera that came up for buy it now/best offer. At first glance it seemed a pretty good deal (Canon 5D mk II digital camera). Although the listing had a growing number of views and watchers, I held off making an offer or buy it now. I sent a message asking for additional details about whether they'd owned since new, if it was the original shutter, if it had ever been professionally serviced etc but received nothing but stony silence after several hours.

Later while browsing the seller's feedback (as difficult as ebay has made it these days with anonymous ID's and non item-specific feedback), I noticed a number of 'repair' 'fix' and 'parts' related sellers and after scrolling through their feedback pages noticed this seller's ID with several parts they'd purchased for this particular model of camera (including lcd screen and internal circuitry). Well that turned me off then and there as the item wasn't being sold as 'refurbished' and the listing made no indication of repairs (in retrospect 'Fully functional' is about as close to a red flag as it gets):-

Canon 5D Mark II

Beautiful cosmetic condition

Fully functional

LOW, LOW shutter actuations at 1770

Includes original clean strap

Original Canon brand battery included

SanDisk Extreme 16gb UDMA7

120MB/s also included

The absolute deal breaker though was when I clicked on a third party seller ID in the seller's 'feedback left for others' section and found the following comment from the current seller to the previous owner (item only identified on the other party's feedback page courtesy of another of ebay's totally unhelpful "site improvements")...

	As described, prompt delivery	Buyer: a***r ( 8492)	During past 6 months
	Cannon 5D Mark II (Water Damage - Not Working)	AU $134.00

While I don't have any issues with items being repaired for resale, I just think some mention of having opened an item up and tinkered with its insides should really be hinted at (at the very least listing as 'seller refurbished' )- particularly for expensive electronic items. In this case the camera could've been dropped over the side of a tinny for all I know which I seriously doubt would appeal to many buyers looking at parting with close to a grand. As it was the buy it now price listed was up in the upper middle price range ($900) and I guessed a buyer would soon jump at it because the description did tend to suggest the camera was in close to new condition and looked in good shape in the pictures - sure enough it ended after just a few hours for buy it now.

*I should note the seller's feedback shows they have dealt in the past with mostly unrelated items (non-tech based), with only a few camera related items over recent months from what I could see, so it's unlikely they had several of the same model camera.

As a side note I MUCH prefer ebay back in the days of old when you could be a bit pro-active to do your own checking up on items in the feedback history without all the extra levels of anonymity ebay has in place these days (which for me has drastically reduced any confidence I previously had in ebay -plus not being able to do your own research into bidder activity etc - no wonder auctions appear to be being dwarfed by buy it now/best offer.)

In this case it was a fair bit of mucking around trying to track down any references to the seller / item -skimming over page after page of third party feedback (made even more difficult -thank you ebay- with the replacement of specific dates with 'past month' 'past 6 months' 'over a year' etc. Ultimately glad I went to the extra bother this time though all things considered.

My advice to other buyers when spending a fair bit of cash on a used tech item like this, would be to always confirm if the seller is the original owner, what kind of use the item has had and if it has ever had any repairs/servicing. And if they don't respond to your queries, don't just assume because it looks like a good deal that it necessarily is and snap it up because it's had 19 views in the past hour and you think you might miss out (another of those little 'site improvements' I find irritating - clearly intended to encourage rash purchase decisions).

Anyway, hope this might be in some way useful to anyone else shopping around for digital cameras or other tech related items.

And for the lucky buyer… who knows, maybe they'll receive a bonus hairdryer with their purchase : (

PS. Odd, today the item isn't showing up in a completed items search (yesterday it showed as 'sold' (green price). The page is still there (found it in my browser history), just can't find it in any ebay searches - even when searching completed items from the seller's items for sale page. Weird.

Re: USED DIGITAL CAMERA / TECH BUYERS BEWARE

lyndal1838 — Fri, 10 Mar 2017 06:40:22 GMT

If it has been removed by ebay that just means that alarm bells have rung and the buyer will be told they do not have to pay for the item.

Unfortunately many buyers just get up in arms and pay anyway, assuming that ebay knows nothing.

Re: USED DIGITAL CAMERA / TECH BUYERS BEWARE

many*splendid*things — Fri, 10 Mar 2017 06:58:22 GMT

Usually it would say 'this item has been removed', but the weird thing is I can still bring up the ended item page using the link from my browser history (don't know if I'm allowed to paste it here). It didn't look like a scam but who knows, maybe it was a hijacked account or something else went on behind the scenes re payment methods etc.

Re: USED DIGITAL CAMERA / TECH BUYERS BEWARE

collect247 — Fri, 10 Mar 2017 07:38:12 GMT

My advice to buyers would be to go and buy from a B & M store simple,as you are always risking it when you buy it

without seeing it first hand.

Re: USED DIGITAL CAMERA / TECH BUYERS BEWARE

springyzone — Fri, 10 Mar 2017 22:06:51 GMT

What an excellent piece of detective work you did!!

And it certainly seems you saved yourself a bit of grief.

I also agree about the ebay changes, it makes it much harder to trace things. I can remember back a few years when buyer ID showed, I would sometimes contact those buyers and ask what was happening or what they thought of an item.

It was extremely useful, especially in a couple of cases where other buyers had trouble with not receiving items. But it was also positive, with some people confirming an item had been excellent.

I would say ebay didn't like buyers being able to do a bit of behind the scenes investigation so they have thrown up as many barriers as they can.

In the case of your camera, if a sale had gone ahead with a seller refurbished item, no doubt the buyer would never know unless soemthing broke down a few months down the track & that is when they would be told by the repairers. I think repairs/refurbished items should be labelled as such too, but the cold, hard truth is there are some sellers out there who just won't fully & honestly describe an item even when faults are easily seen once delivered. So I am betting that is very much more the case where something is not immediately visible.

I have a friend who has bought an expensive camera new and also a second hand phone on ebay. Both experiences went badly.

Personally, I would never pay near a $1000 for anything on here that i could not inspect or where a seller did not answer my questions.

Re: USED DIGITAL CAMERA / TECH BUYERS BEWARE

many*splendid*things — Sat, 11 Mar 2017 05:12:25 GMT

Thanks springyzone - I guess risk always comes with the territory when buying used. But when you're on a budget (as I am) and don't have the resources to fork out for the current model from a retailer, you can generally pick up the previous model when other people are upgrading (for less than half the price).

I guess this just points out the need to be extra careful when buying items like this.

Of course as a buyer you're pretty much in the dark when someone has separate accounts for buying and selling, but if you ask the right questions you can get the idea if a seller has owned an item personally or is just onselling something they picked up cheap.

As far as all the anonymity on ebay goes, despite their claims of making ebay a safer trading environment, I think a lot of the motivation has largely been about profit and minimising off-ebay transactions. Last time I tried to send my email address to a seller via ebay messages so they could send me a high resolution image or something, ebay wouldn't even permit the message to be sent. Plus there's ebay's conflict of interest regarding shill bidding that many have commented on before on these boards.

Re: USED DIGITAL CAMERA / TECH BUYERS BEWARE

springyzone — Sun, 12 Mar 2017 01:20:35 GMT

Don't worry, manysplendidthing, I am a big believer in the advantages of buying second hand at times too. Often there are good savings to be made.

But like you, I think it is worth asking questions and getting a feel about things first-whether it seems like an item the seller has had since new, why they are selling etc

I have bought quite a few second hand things on ebay, including a food processor, with no problems at all.

With some things like this though, I prefer pick up.

Re: USED DIGITAL CAMERA / TECH BUYERS BEWARE

davidc4430 — Sun, 12 Mar 2017 02:18:24 GMT

i think cameras fall into the area of items not to buy secondhand on ebay unless you can go look at them in person and you can tell the difference between a good deal and a shonk.

Re: USED DIGITAL CAMERA / TECH BUYERS BEWARE

many*splendid*things — Mon, 13 Mar 2017 06:24:28 GMT

I agree it's a bit of a gamble with cameras and you really need to have some concept of the kinds of checks to do when spending a fair chuck of cash on tech items like this.

But as far as buying used cameras in person goes it really requires more than a brief 20 min look-over (ideally you need to take a some shots and review them on a screen, test out major functions etc - I doubt many seller's would have the patience for a proper pre-purchase check).

I suppose with gear of this type, this is where ebay's money back guarantee really comes into play as opposed to the early days where paypal may request a written appraisal by a professional technician if there was a claim regarding a fault. Not sure where you stand with ebay's money back guarantee if you pay cash on pick up though.

Re: USED DIGITAL CAMERA / TECH BUYERS BEWARE

davidc4430 — Mon, 13 Mar 2017 07:01:46 GMT

"Not sure where you stand with ebay's money back guarantee if you pay cash on pick up though."

this where life gets difficult.

as a seller if i had an item being 'pick up only' id demand cash only. taking me out of the MBG.

as a buyer if i was buying an item 'pickup only' id demand pay via paypal. keeping me in the MBG.

anyway, both seller and buyer on 'pickup only' items have the right if they feel somethings not quite right to say "NO" and end the deal right then and there.

better to walk away than end up with problems.

i dont know anything about cameras except i point one at an object and press a button to get a photo. thats prolly why i never buy used cameras.

maybe this seemed like a great deal? maybe great deals sometimes end up as not so great.?

Re: USED DIGITAL CAMERA / TECH BUYERS BEWARE

many*splendid*things — Mon, 13 Mar 2017 07:35:17 GMT

I thought that was the case re- the money back guarantee.

It seems the better option as a buyer is to have it delivered and then give it a thorough inspection (though if I was the seller I don't think I'd be especially keen on a stranger handling my valuable goods and worrying that sometime in the next 30 days there might be a return request (or a dubious damage claim).

How do Seller's on ebay cope these days with the potential for the money back guarantee to be abused as a 'free hire service' ? What's to stop someone buying a camera, taking it on holiday, shooting a wedding or three then in several weeks wanting to return it for some lame reason? I really don't see how ebay can police that kind of activity if not by repeat offenders - so I can understand it if sellers are jumping ship due to the money back guarantee.

Re: USED DIGITAL CAMERA / TECH BUYERS BEWARE

*tippy*toes* — Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:32:27 GMT

@many*splendid*things wrote:
I thought that was the case re- the money back guarantee.

It seems the better option as a buyer is to have it delivered and then give it a thorough inspection (though if I was the seller I don't think I'd be especially keen on a stranger handling my valuable goods and worrying that sometime in the next 30 days there might be a return request (or a dubious damage claim).

How do Seller's on ebay cope these days with the potential for the money back guarantee to be abused as a 'free hire service' ? What's to stop someone buying a camera, taking it on holiday, shooting a wedding or three then in several weeks wanting to return it for some lame reason? I really don't see how ebay can police that kind of activity if not by repeat offenders - so I can understand it if sellers are jumping ship due to the money back guarantee.

There is nothing to stop them and buyers know it and abuse it. It's most rife in the fashion category. Someone will buy a dress, wear it to an event, then claim not as described as they no longer have a use for it. EBay believes them and they get a refund. If the seller doesn't pay the return postage, eBay will refund the buyer and tell them to keep the item.

There was a thread a few months back on the sellers forum about a buyer claiming not as described for an outfit. The savvy seller checked the buyers Facebook page and found a photo of them wearing the outfit at an event. If it had the damage the buyer was claiming it would have been unwearable.

Sellers are fed up to the back teeth with the MBG because the buyers can do no wrong and know how to rort the system. There is nothing the sellers can do about it. I never thought of it happening with a camera, but it's entirely possible for the scenarios you mentioned. Anything is possible with the eBay shoplifters.

Re: USED DIGITAL CAMERA / TECH BUYERS BEWARE

many*splendid*things — Mon, 13 Mar 2017 13:50:48 GMT

Thanks for your comments tippy toes. Ebay's money back guarantee is the kind of return policy you might expect from a big retailer like K-mart - it seems unreasonable to the point of bullying for ebay to coerce small time and casual sellers to comply with a no questions asked return policy when a seller has been genuinely taken advantage of. I suppose a small minority of dodgy sellers in the past (selling faulty stuff and refusing returns) has basically ruined ebay for all the genuinely good sellers.

Nobody likes to feel like they just bought a lemon, but I really think ebay need to have a rethink about the circumstances in which an item can be returned for a full refund (without any kind of investigation or proof required) or otherwise ebay should consider providing some kind of compensation to sellers for the otherwise free hire of their goods -especially in cases like you mention or for returns involving mind changers.

I'm getting the idea that if you're not ok with lending your gear to total strangers, it's probably not worth the risk of trying to sell items valued much more than 50-100 bucks on ebay (seems very much like a 'sold' item can fast become 'borrowed' one with a simple click on 'return this item' these days).

No wonder ebay are resorting to no fee incentives to get people to sell on their site.