topic Re: Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal??? in Buying

Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal???

wendy9456 — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 19:40:09 GMT

Firstly Merry Christmas Everyone.

I just have a question as I have noticed on the boards recently buyers mention Item Not Recieved disputes.There has been talk re claims being lodged via eBay and not Paypal. Confused. What is the difference and what is the best way to go??

Cheers and TIA

Wendy

Re: Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal???

curraone — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 19:58:34 GMT

First step - an ordinary email to the seller, choosing "other" as the subject. Most sellers have refund/replace policies in place, and they may want to confirm the address etc. Some sellers ask for a formal stat/dec that they can take to the PO to complete a missing parcel investigation.

If no satisfatory response from the seller, then I would go with a paypal dispute, it seems the simplest method.

Re: Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal???

phorum_junkie* — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 23:28:49 GMT

If it works as it should and it appears there is no great hope of that happening yet then you are better off with an ebay dispute especially if the seller has provided tracking. For Paypal proof of posting is enough for the seller to win but with ebay proof of delivery is needed.

Re: Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal???

cq_tech — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 23:51:23 GMT

What's the difference? In Australia, once the item has been handed to the carrier is it legally deemed to have been delivered and now belongs to the buyer so on that basis it shouldn't make any difference whether the claim is handled by eBay or Paypal as the end result should be exactly the same.

Re: Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal???

fixnwear — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 01:42:41 GMT

phorum junkie - that is wrong - about Ebay needing the proof of delivery

They are exactly the same as PP, seller needs to prove they have posted it, with tracking number.

That is all.

I had recently experienced the same with two unrelated items, and both of them were knocked back as it showed it was posted.

They told me to get the seller to chase it up with the PO.

Which is only right, when you think of it - as the sellers did nothing wrong, it would be terrible if the money was taken of them for no good reason!

They have entrusted it to the third party - they can't be possibly held responsible for it - PO obviously is.

OP, you'll bomb out with the claims to either of them, Ebay or PP - if seller has tracking showing they've posted it.

Your best bet is to them to inquire with the PO - and they'll find what happened to it eventually.

Re: Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal???

elusiveeditions — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 02:54:51 GMT

Ok, so does this all mean:

1- EB & PP essentially have the same stance, that proof of post/delivery into Australia Post's system or courier system covers the seller- no recourse to buyer.

This has been my experience as a seller so far (but haven't tested new rules) but it does seem awkward, since any AP investigation has to be launched by the sender/seller, the buyer is powerless here.

2- What exactly constitutes proof of post? Eg, these things?

a) Tracking number with no receipt as such (just the tracking number sticker from a satchel, even when you hand these over the counter you don't get any receipt, it's just scanned)- marked on AP site as delivered

b) Tracking number with no receipt as above- marked on AP site as rec'd in system but not delivered

c) No tracking number but receipt from PO with postcode of delivery address

d) Anything else?

AND- this is all ONLY if buyer pays by PP. If buyer pays by BD or other means, all of the above is moot anyway. Is that right?

There doesn't seem to be any real consensus on much of this... it does my head in and I haven't even had to deal with any problems yet. Many of you here have my deep sympathies.

Re: Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal???

tall_bearded01 — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 04:04:45 GMT

To make sense of it all, all one needs is a rudimentary understanding as to the fundamental legal principals governing distance sales, especially where goods are sold on description.

When it comes to delivery, as it is the buyer who owns the goods, they have an express right under the legislation to not only stipulate the kind of carrier to be used, but also the kind of service to be used, and whether they will go to the added expense of insuring it.

When it comes to delivery by carrier, the seller is the agent of the buyer, and as such, they must do everything reasonably required or instructed to do by the buyer to ensure safe delivery. So if the buyer says they want it double boxed, the seller is required to double box it. If the buyer says they want a fragile service used then a fragile service must be used. Needless to say, as they are the one giving the instructions, they foot the bill, including providing the seller with reasonable reimbursement for time spent performing these tasks on behalf of the buyer

Furthermore, if the buyer issues no instructions, but instead leaves it wholly to the seller to decide the kind of carrier and service to be used, then once the seller has made those arrangements, if the buyer pays for them, then that payment has the same legal effect as if the buyer had told the seller to use that service. So if you buy a china plate and have it delivered by being placed in a post pack bubble wrap, then this has the same legal effect as if buyer had said to the seller, ‘don’t box it. Just put it in a post pack and sent it’.

If the seller discharges their obligations as referred to above, then, all risk associated with any loss or damage to the goods passes from the seller to the buyer. This is referred to as deemed delivery, which in effect means handing the goods the carrier has the same legal effect as if the goods had been handed to the buyer.

Finally, the buyer is said to have received the goods once the carrier has fulfilled their obligations under the delivery contract. For instance, where a buyer pays for standard post, then the item is said to have been received when it was safe dropped, and if it goes missing after it was safe-dropped then it when missing after it was received. Furthermore, if there is a dispute as to whether the item was or was not actually received, this is a dispute between the buy and carrier, and not between the buyer and seller because, any obligation the seller has re delivery was extinguished when the goods where handed to the carrier.

Now all you need to do is read the words in as contained in The Guarantee in the context of actual meaning as provided above, and you will get an idea as to what your rights and responsibilities under the Guarantee are.

Re: Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal???

afantiques — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 04:48:14 GMT

Looks like Australian buyers get a pretty rough deal. In America and the UK, the seller must produce evidence of delivery to win a not received claim.

'Post and forget' has long been outlawed.

Re: Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal???

elusiveeditions — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 05:32:23 GMT

TallBeardedOne, thanks for detailing all of that. Your posts are most informative.

I have several questions but I'll only trouble you with one. In regards to:

"Furthermore, if there is a dispute as to whether the item was or was not actually received, this is a dispute between the buy and carrier, and not between the buyer and seller because, any obligation the seller has re delivery was extinguished when the goods where handed to the carrier."

a) If an Item not rec'd case is in law a dispute b/w the buyer and the carrier (whether AP or courier) it seems difficult to enforce, since AP at least (unsure on couriers) require the sender of the item to initiate any recovery attempt or invesitgation with the carrier. In my experince the buyer cannot launch any enquiry with the carrier, so how are they to dispute anything at all?

b) I'm still not clear on what constitutes actual extinguishment of seller obligation in terms of actual proof of 'handed to carrier'. There is much grey here, and experinces seem to differ.

I may be about to test this myself, so I will read further 🙂

Re: Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal???

tall_bearded01 — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 06:14:31 GMT

Depends on your definition of rough.

The legislation here is based on the two basic principles - they who own something and can’t afford to lose it should insure it; coupled with, the person who makes a decision should bear any adverse consequences arising from it.

Here the legislation provides that the buyer owns the goods NLT immediately they pay for them.

Here the legislation provides the place of delivery to be the place where the goods are located at the time of sale, and the buyer has every right to go to that place and collect them.

Here the legislation provides, if the buyer is not able to collect them themselves, they can arrange for someone else to go to the place that they located (be it a family member, friend, or contractor/carrier) to collect it on their behalf.

Here the legislation provides, if the buyer can’t, or don’t want to collect, or don’t want to arrange someone else to collect it, they can ask the seller to make the necessary arrangement to have it delivered by carrier. That is the decision to use a carrier to deliver is made by the buyer, not the seller.

Here the legislation provides that the if the seller agrees to the buyers request, it is the buyer who decides the kind of carrier to be used and the level of service they want – are prepared to pay for.

Here the legislation provides that where the buyer requests the goods be delivered by carrier, and the seller agrees to make the necessary arrangement, as long as they comply with all reasonable request made by the buyer then any legal obligations they had in connection with those goods is extinguished once they have handed the goods to the carrier.

Now, any of the above can be implied.

That is if the sellers terms of sale do not EXPRESSLY say no pick up, his means the buyer is free to go where the item is located and pick it up; or arrange someone else to collect them it for them. Furthermore if the listing doesn’t expressly exclude pick up and provides a delivery by carrier option, this is an implied agreement by the seller that they will arrange for delivery by carrier. Now at this point, the buyer can choose to pay for the carrier option as provided by the seller or they can instruct the seller to use another. That is once the seller opened the door re delivery by carrier they can’t shut it…In act implications of implied instructions or consent are limitless but I think enough t=has been provided to drive home the point.

And here’s the important bit. The legislation allows for a contract out of provision. That is, it actually allows for the seller to change the place of delivery from the place where item is located at the time of sale to some other place - such as the buyers residence – by stipulating in the listing Pick-up is not allowed. But the legislation also provides that, if a seller is stupid enough to do that, then deemed delivery doesn’t apply; that is the seller remains liable for any loss or damage to the goods until the time they are actually in the possession of the buyer.

Like I said, the intent of the legislation is to make the person who makes the decision responsible for any adverse consequences arising out of it.

Re: Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal???

fixnwear — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 06:36:04 GMT

elusive,

in a nut shell:

If seller posts with click & send, tracking number will appear in the listing for buyer and everyone else to look at and track.

Sellers have fullfilled their obligation - they have posted it - and there is no other possible way for seller to ensure even more that the buyer will actually receive it - as the seller is not taking it over personally, he has to relly on AP to do their job.

If buyer claims in spite of than non receipt - they will loose the dispute. There is absolutely no possible way they can win.

If seller is informed that the parcel has never arrived - he can undertake to find out from AP - BUT HE DOESN"T OWE THE BUYER ANYTHING. Except pulling all the stops to help with PO investigation - keep on them until they find out what has happened to it.

That is why PP as well as Ebay can't just take the money from the seller, not his fault a third party has lost it.

That would be a big falacy if the seller was to be responsible for that part and lost money every time. That fault can't be pinned faire and square on the seller every time!

Nothing stopping buyers either from paying for some form of insurance - but they seldom want to do it - they count too much on how they are going to be "protected" somehow if their parcel is never seen again.

Then, when they lose the case they go and leave negs for sellers - some of them before they even find out what happened to the parcel. Disgraceful that is even possible.

Re: Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal???

tall_bearded01 — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 06:43:46 GMT

There are two kinds of claims processes.

The first is the process that the service provider (Aust Post) want you to use for the purposes of determining whether, they the provider will, without actually admitting liability, resolve the issue by way of a discretionary payment. The other process is what happens if you are not happy with the outcome.

That is, if Aust Post using their in house process makes a decision you don’t like, you are entitled to lodge a complaint with the Omnbudam, and if you lodge a complaint with same, then what say it requires to justify the claim is no longer relevant.

That is, whereas, when it comes to lost items the Aunt Post policy say it’s the seller who lodges the claim, the ombudsman requires that only the person who actually owned the goods lost, that is the person entitled to any compensation, is the one who must lodge the complaint.

Re: Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal???

tall_bearded01 — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 07:07:54 GMT

As to what provides actual proof –

The core evidence is an affidavit or stat Dec (that is a sworn statement) that the item was sent to the buyers address. As this statement is sworn it must be accepted on face value, unless there is good cause to doubt the credibility of the person who made it. Rules of Evidence 101.

So where do things like receipts, diary entries/postal ledgers, tracking number’s fit in. They are the documents provided in support of the evidence. That they are not the evidence, they are the documents provided which attest to the accuracy of the evidence as contained in sworn statement.

So this is how I usually respond to say an item not receive claim. I provide a stat Dec that the item was posted ,giving details as when it as posted etc, coupled with copies of an documents I have in support - postal ledger where the postal transaction was recorded, copies the receipt, details of the tracking number etc.

Then if the claim was filed with PayPal if they find for the buyer, simply lodge a dispute with the FOS and wait for PayPal to cave, and if the claim was lodged with eBay file a complaint with the ACCC and the SA Office of Consumer affairs and wait for eBay to fold.

It is really that simple.

Re: Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal???

cq_tech — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 08:10:30 GMT

So in other words, the fact that I photograph all of my untrackable large letters once the stamps have been officially cancelled by the PO is sufficient evidence, in conjunction with a statutory declaration, to successfully defend an INR claim against Paypal or eBay in the event that the letter is lost in transit while in the care and possession of the carrier, correct?

Re: Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal???

tall_bearded01 — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 20:12:06 GMT

Yes.

The stat dec is the evidence the item was posted. The photographs are the documents which support the evidence you gave in the Stat Dec. And the two combined is more than enough to prove, on the balance of probabilities that the item has been posted.

Then if PayPal/eBay refuse accept that proof, a favourable resolution is only a quick complaint to the relevant regulatory body away, And if they receive enough of them, then this is evidence that the problem is systemic, and if the regulator is satisfied it is systemic then, it is at that point they will step in, with the do it or else "suggestion" that things need to change.

You see, what corporations like eBay and PayPal rely on is that people will always whine but very few will actually take the time to actually do something about it However, there come a time when people are pushed too far, with the 21 day freeze being a case in point, and when that happens, that's when people decide enough is enough and will actual do something about it.

Re: Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal???

cq_tech — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 22:57:15 GMT

Thanks t_b, I had a feeling that was the case but I very much appreciate your having verified exactly where I stand. In the absence of scanned tracking, large letters have always presented a major issue with proving delivery so it's nice to know that I'm definitely covered if one of my letters goes missing in transit.

Re: Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal???

harley_babes_hoard — Thu, 25 Dec 2014 20:09:09 GMT

I am in the same boat, lots of large letters. I have a book with the buyers name and address then it Is date stamped by the PO staff once I hand them over for lodgement. In the past this I have had tested a paypal claim twice. Once it was enough evidence and buyers claim was dismissed the other case paypal said it wasn't enough to prove item had been posted so lost that claim. So what exactly is needed to have a stat dec filed?

Re: Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal???

chameleon54 — Thu, 25 Dec 2014 23:05:42 GMT

@elusiveeditions wrote:
Ok, so does this all mean:

1- EB & PP essentially have the same stance, that proof of post/delivery into Australia Post's system or courier system covers the seller- no recourse to buyer.

This has been my experience as a seller so far (but haven't tested new rules) but it does seem awkward, since any AP investigation has to be launched by the sender/seller, the buyer is powerless here.

2- What exactly constitutes proof of post? Eg, these things?
a) Tracking number with no receipt as such (just the tracking number sticker from a satchel, even when you hand these over the counter you don't get any receipt, it's just scanned)- marked on AP site as delivered
b) Tracking number with no receipt as above- marked on AP site as rec'd in system but not delivered
c) No tracking number but receipt from PO with postcode of delivery address
d) Anything else?

AND- this is all ONLY if buyer pays by PP. If buyer pays by BD or other means, all of the above is moot anyway. Is that right?

There doesn't seem to be any real consensus on much of this... it does my head in and I haven't even had to deal with any problems yet. Many of you here have my deep sympathies.

First, many thanks to the tall bearded one, for again sharing his invaluable experience.

elusiveeditions - When you lodge a pre paid 500gm., 3 kg. 5 kg. parcel or tracked envelope, you can request an AP reciept on lodgement, which proves you handed it over the counter to them. I recieve one each time I mail and it forces the staff to scan the item in at the time. Its no big deal, I pile them on the counter with bar codes all facing the same way. They grab them and scan and put in bins in one easy movement. It only takes a few seconds. When finished the pile they hit a button and you have your lodgement reciept showing each parcel with tracking number. ( paper copy proof of lodgement.)

Re: Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal???

elusiveeditions — Fri, 26 Dec 2014 04:45:54 GMT

Ah ok, thanks chameloen, I didn't know you could get an AP receipt for handing over satchels if you ask.

Luckily my almost INR resolved itself- satchel is now safely in buyer's hands, but I'm saving this thread for future ref, lots of excellent advice here. Large letters are my other prob. good advice on that too.

I previously sold 2ndhand books online for years (abe, alibris, biblioz etc) and this nonsense just didn't happen. I didn't realise how lucky we were back then. Also AP accounts were cheaper, it was so much easier (sigh).

You'd think ebay could make this clearer. Oh that's right, there's money in keeping everyone confused and frightened. Silly me!

Re: Item Not Received - Next step - Ebay or Paypal???

wendy9456 — Fri, 26 Dec 2014 07:32:04 GMT

Thanks for all the responses. After the first 2 seemed to get off the track a bit. Still confused but think I will just go with my gut feeling if I ever have to worry about it.

Thanks again to everyone and hope you all had a lovely Christmas and let's hope we all have a wonderful 2015 free of eBay woes and defects and scam buyers.

Cheers

Wendy