topic Is Ebay telling Australian sellers to break the law? in Buying

Is Ebay telling Australian sellers to break the law?

carouselfetish — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 12:46:36 GMT

I have noticed many sellers sporting on their site that they 'take no responsibility for items once it leaves their hands'. This is, of course, nonsense under Australian Consumer Law. They are entirely responsible for the safe delivery of items to customers' hands. They're not responsible for what happens to it after that unless it's a new item that should have an expected shelf-life.

Australian Consumer Law is no joke. It's even illegal to tell customers that they cannot expect a refund for damaged/non-working goods that basically have arrived 'not as described'. It's not acceptable to blame Australia Post. If a seller is taking the risk of selling online fragile goods, then it is the seller's risk to do that; the consumer should not be wearing that risk. Either be prepared to refund sometimes, or get out of the business.

Ebay, I've been told by a seller, told them to put that on their site. Ebay, apparently, told that seller to break the law. Which means Ebay broke the law also. If any sellers out there have been advised thus, then they had best reconsider. This is not the US; our law is very different about selling products and delivery of them.

Good wrapping saves most of the hassle. I've received many fragile items; only the badly wrapped have been broken. A cardboard box with shredded newspaper or pellets etc works fine. Balls of newspaper does not (they don't absorb much shock, they are hard). Bubble wrap without a box but in an envelope is also risky, very risky. I'm talking about very fragile things here, like china or glassware.

If you are a seller with an attitude that you will not refund for damaged in transit, then you are creating bad will for your business. I personally will not deal with any site that claims that. Consider; it sounds like you don't give a toss for the satisfaction of your customers. It even suggests, wrongly or rightly, that you might be careless in packing, as you fear no consequences.

Ebay should be ashamed if it is true that they are advising sellers this way. They should instead be advising on best ways to wrap. It need cost no more than careless wrapping. And the occasional refund is not going to break your business if it is only very occasional. Poor wrapping will raise that to frequent.

I advise all buyers who receive broken goods to take an immediate photo of the item, ALONG WITH THE WRAPPING METHOD, and submit it to the seller to discuss. I personally would not seek a refund from a well-packaged item. I don't think I'll ever have to, anyway. All these claims about post staff being gorillas are ridiculous. If an item is well packaged it should not be damaged on arrival. But if somehow it is, then the seller must accept that as part of their business risk.

The seller should, I think, expect photos to be sent as proof of the claimed damage, soon after the anticipated arrival date. Without that, or without the item being shipped back to prove it, the seller shouldn't have to refund. But that's obvious, I know.

I am a business person and I accpet the risks of my own business, which is not this sort, but nonetheless I run risks of a different kind. Don't take on selling fragile goods online if you can't cope with breakages and refunds, is my suggestion. And get clear on legalities of being a seller in Australia. Obviously, Ebay needs to.

Re: Is Ebay telling Australian sellers to break the law?

davewil1964 — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 13:10:41 GMT

If you are an Australian business owner, then you know full well that Australian Consumer Law deems an item received by the buyer when the seller has posted it.

eBay, on the other hand, require proof of delivery, which is actually not a legal stand.

So, eBay don't tell sellers to break the law. They do, however, require sellers to adhere to standards higher than those required by the law.

Buyers are also covered by eBay's ~~shoplifting~~ money back guarantee.

Re: Is Ebay telling Australian sellers to break the law?

k1ooo-slr-sales — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 13:26:44 GMT

I’ll skip on commenting on your Opening Post for now and skip straight to the question you asked in your thread title:

Is Ebay telling Australian sellers to break the law?

My answer is NO

Therefore, I feel no need to read your Opening Post as I believe you put forward an argument that supports a YES answer, and I don’t want an argument.

Re: Is Ebay telling Australian sellers to break the law?

digital*ghost — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 14:31:47 GMT

ACL applies to registered Australian businesses only.

eBay are not telling sellers to put the "not repsonsible..." line in listings, in fact it was a policy breach to do so (I'm not sure if it's still an explicitly stated policy, and I'm not trawling the new help pages to find out if it is. Not at 1am anyway ).

+ what dave and sir sales said.

Also, compensation from Australia Post may be available to recipients of goods damaged in transit if it was the fault of Australia Post and it was packaged to their standards.

Re: Is Ebay telling Australian sellers to break the law?

iqlessthan40 — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 14:40:19 GMT

Some proof of the allegations you make would be nice somewhere in that wall of text.

Something you heard off someone else about something else would never be followed up on by anyone - here or in the US.

Re: Is Ebay telling Australian sellers to break the law?

*tippy*toes* — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 15:59:38 GMT

Despite what eBay spouts, Australian Consumer Law only applies to registered businesses. It doesn't apply to people like myself who sell because they feel like selling stuff. I got very confused with your post, so skimmed over most of it.

As someone who sells fragile stuff, and has never had a breakage, and is not a registered business, ACL don't apply to me. If you buy something from me and it does arrive broken, then no point screaming about ACL. That ain't going to help you. Sending me a message saying there is a problem will get you the best results. If a seller doesn't respond to an initial message, then open a dispute. As a buyer, you're pretty much guaranteed to win.

Re: Is Ebay telling Australian sellers to break the law?

lm-entertainment — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 18:49:42 GMT

this basically sounds like a long-winded rant - it doesn't seem to make much sense at all - you're going off on tangents.

i like many others here have been selling for years and years on ebay and they've never said anything of the sort to me, or to put it in my listings - so i don't know where the seller you spoke to got that from. if anything, it's the opposite, ebay hold sellers to a higher standard than the law as digi has stated. (you've only got to look at the ebay MBG or the paypal buyer protection policies).

i'm more intrigued by what a carousel fetish is

Re: Is Ebay telling Australian sellers to break the law?

queenslander-one — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 22:21:25 GMT

Might I suggest you read the following section of the Australia Regulations.

Australia Post rules item 101. Which reads as follows

For the purpose of any legal proceeding or action in relation to an article carried by post or under the control of Australia Post, the article shall be taken to be, while it is being carried by post or under the control of Australia Post, the property of Australia Post.

In Australia, the seller is not legally responsible for delivery, only postage, therefore proof of postage is what is required.

Re: Is Ebay telling Australian sellers to break the law?

davidc4430 — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 22:39:45 GMT

Another point, Australia Post do not have a breakage policy worth the paper its written on. i stick 'fragile handle with care' stickers on all my packages.

but i was informed by the Post master at my post office it makes no difference.

they dont garantee to not break it.

but i still do it in hope the various people handling my post do take care and it also gives the buyer the knowledge i allerted those various people the package may contain fragile items.

of course it could work the opposite, watch the begining of 'ace ventura pet detective' or any of the youtube videos of postal employees destroying mail for fun.

Re: Is Ebay telling Australian sellers to break the law?

k1ooo-slr-sales — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 03:41:47 GMT

@queenslander-onewrote:
Might I suggest you read the following section of the Australia Regulations.

Australia Post rules item 101. Which reads as follows
For the purpose of any legal proceeding or action in relation to an article carried by post or under the control of Australia Post, the article shall be taken to be, while it is being carried by post or under the control of Australia Post, the property of Australia Post.
In Australia, the seller is not legally responsible for delivery, only postage, therefore proof of postage is what is required.

queenslander, are you inferring that all articles lodged with Aust Post are deemed to be owned by Aust Post during the delivery process?

Can you post a link to this rule 101 ?

Re: Is Ebay telling Australian sellers to break the law?

k1ooo-slr-sales — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 04:27:46 GMT

stop looking . . . . . I found it!

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2012C00142

Hope you don’t mind me asking this question, why do you call it Rule 101 ?

I couldn’t find anything that indicates that it is a ‘rule’. I will refer to it as ‘Part 8 - Miscellaneous - 101’ from here on in as it is tucked away towards the end of the Australia Post Corporation Act 1989 in the section titled ‘Part 8 - Miscellaneous’.

This act does not appear to deal with the ins and outs of the day-to-day operating practices of Australia Post and, as pointed out on these boards before, Part 8 - Miscellaneous - 101 in context refers to "for the purpose of any legal proceeding or action".

If Miscellaneous 101 was dealing with day-to-day operations one would expect it to be surrounded by a multitude of other statements regarding posting and lodgement of articles and not tucked away in the "Miscellaneous" section of the Corporation Act.

Re: Is Ebay telling Australian sellers to break the law?

davidc4430 — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 07:39:53 GMT

maybe it means you cant sue them for losing your item as they deem it theirs?

Re: Is Ebay telling Australian sellers to break the law?

k1ooo-slr-sales — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 08:18:56 GMT

the interpretation of the quoted section of 8-Miscellaneous-101 to support some premise that Aust Post owns articles during the delivery process belongs here:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/The-Book-of-Common-Fallacies-Falsehoods-Misconceptions-Flawed-Facts-and-Half/132107386317?epid=189927715&hash=item1ec236bdcd:g:arsAAOSwquVaCMs1

Re: Is Ebay telling Australian sellers to break the law?

go-tazz — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 10:27:24 GMT

@queenslander-onewrote:

In Australia, the seller is not legally responsible for delivery, only postage, therefore proof of postage is what is required.

If that sort of garbage held any truth then no one would be able to sell anything,(off course the seller is

legally responsible as the buyer has not just paid for the item they have also paid for it to be delivered to them).

Once you've sold and item you have to get it to the buyer and you are solely responsible for doing so as that's

what they've paid for,(they've paid for you to get it to them and not just for you to post it).

No business would last very long if they didn't deliver what they sold,

Re: Is Ebay telling Australian sellers to break the law?

queenslander-two — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 11:12:13 GMT

Don't have a link but that is extract from their site

Re: Is Ebay telling Australian sellers to break the law?

k1ooo-slr-sales — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 11:55:32 GMT

@queenslander-twowrote:
Don't have a link but that is extract from their site

queenslander-two . . . . are you queenslander-one’s little brother/sister?

I couldn’t find any reference to it on the Aust Post website. I did find it in the Australia Postal Corporation Act 1989 which contains the text you have quoted several times.

Here’s the link again: https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2012C00142 scroll down to Section 8 - Miscellaneous - 101 right towards the end of the document/page, so the text you quote can be read in context.

Re: Is Ebay telling Australian sellers to break the law?

jensmanchester-australia — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 12:15:40 GMT

@queenslander-two.

This Ebay User Agreement is governed in all respects by the laws of New South Wales.

As far as whether or not the parcel is deemed to be delivered once handed to Australia Post this comes under the Sale of Goods Act NSW.

http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/.../act+1+1923+cd+0+N

The suggestion that the seller is discharged of responsibility once the goods are handed to the delivery company seems to come from Part 4 Sect 35 clause 1:

"Where in pursuance of a contract of sale the seller is authorised or required to send the goods to the buyer, delivery of the goods to a carrier, whether named by the buyer or not, for the purpose of transmission to the buyer, is prima facie deemed to be a delivery of the goods to the buyer."

So goods are deemed to have been delivered once handed to the carrier BUT the next clause seems to clarify that if the goods do not arrive or if they arrive damaged then the seller is still responsible as per Part 4 Sect 35 Clause 2:

"Unless otherwise authorised by the buyer, the seller must make such contract with the carrier on behalf of the buyer as may be reasonable, having regard to the nature of the goods and the other circumstances of the case. If the seller omit so to do, and the goods are lost or damaged in course of transit, the buyer may decline to treat the delivery to the carrier as a delivery to the buyer, or may hold the seller responsible in damages."

Re: Is Ebay telling Australian sellers to break the law?

lyndal1838 — Sun, 11 Mar 2018 01:47:51 GMT

Hello Jen, long time no see. It is lovely to have you back on the boards.

Re: Is Ebay telling Australian sellers to break the law?

phorum_junkie* — Sun, 11 Mar 2018 02:07:31 GMT

Jen you have no idea how many times I have quoted clause 2 to rebut the numpties who only see clause 1 and think they are home free if they have proof of posting.

Most of them have told me I don't know what I am taliking about and one chap even got chucked off the boards for the way he constantly spoke to me calling me an idiot etc and absolutely convinced he was right.

I gave up a few years ago and just stopped posting on the I am not responsible threads.

Re: Is Ebay telling Australian sellers to break the law?

jensmanchester-australia — Sun, 11 Mar 2018 02:25:27 GMT

Hi Lyndal,

Nice to see some of the regulars still here. I was in and out of hospital for the last few years but all good now and semi retired so just taking things easy.