topic Re: Desperately need help/advice on chargeback in Selling

Desperately need help/advice on chargeback

nirv_australia — Fri, 08 May 2015 00:38:13 GMT

We sold a PC to a customer. The courier tried to delivery it a couple of times and there was nobody home. According to the buyer it was left down the side of their house. The buyer didn't like this. He demanded we have it picked up and send another one. As usual, us sellers are held to ransom from buyers, so we had it collected and sent another one. It had become evident from our communications with the buyer during this time that he was going to be a very difficult and unreasonable person. Anyway, he claimed this second PC had some damage to it. I requested photos but he didnt' send any.

So then I get a notification from Paypal saying that a chargeback has been filed. I supplied all the requested information. A week or two later I get an email from Paypal saying the card issuer has decided in the buyers favour. Yet they sill have the PC! (worth $1800).

I have spoken to everyone - Paypal - they can't help. Saying it is out of their hands.

I have spoken to the buyers bank - they say it wasn't their decision and that Mastercard and Paypal would have decided the outcome.

I can't speak to Mastercard, they don't have a way of contacting them regarding these matters.

I have spoken to the police and they indicated there probably isn't much they can do.

I have emailed the customer many times demanding that he return the PC as it no longer belongs to him. I have had no response. I dont have a phone number for him.

What can I do? How the hell can a chargeback be granted whilst the buyer still has the goods?

Re: Desperately need help/advice on chargeback

clarry100 — Fri, 08 May 2015 01:20:00 GMT

Yes this certainly sounds like its outside Australian laws.

I would be lodging a complaint with The ACORN. See link below.

I thought if you had all the required seller protection in place then you should not lose a chargeback case against you.

http://www.acorn.gov.au/

Re: Desperately need help/advice on chargeback

dylan11235813 — Fri, 08 May 2015 01:29:36 GMT

I assume the sale was through ebay and as far as I can tell you should be protected under the paypal seller protection policy if you have a tracking number and a lodgement reciept with the delivery address (or at least the postcode).

It doesn't matter what the bank thinks and is paypals problem, your case should never have gotten to the point where you had to fight the banks for the claim (or paypal fight the banks on your behalf).

Have a look at paypals seller protection policy (for Australia / it is different to the USA one), if you believe that you meet all the requirements lodge an appeal and also put a complaint in with the FOS.

You should report the buyer to the online fraud website. Stealing and credit card fraud is a seriouse offence in my opinion and any police office that says there is not much that can be done is incompetent.

Re: Desperately need help/advice on chargeback

harley_babes_hoard — Fri, 08 May 2015 01:44:25 GMT

why on earth did you pick up the first and send another?

Re: Desperately need help/advice on chargeback

thecatspjs — Fri, 08 May 2015 01:58:53 GMT

If the advice on the emails from paypal says chargeback is for unauthorised use of card and you have provided proof of delivery to buyers address paypal should provide with you seller protection.

What does it say in the paypal advice's regarding the reason for chargeback?

Re: Desperately need help/advice on chargeback

nirv_australia — Fri, 08 May 2015 03:00:40 GMT

Thanks for the replies. According to Paypal, Seller Protection only covers if the item was not received or if it was an unauthorised payment. It does not cover if there is a problem with the item, which is what the buyer claimed as the reason for the chargeback.

I have just logged into paypal to see if I can lodge an appeal. The only option is to access cases that were closed within the past 15 days. This case was closed outside of that so I am not able to access the case.

Re: Desperately need help/advice on chargeback

nirv_australia — Fri, 08 May 2015 03:07:11 GMT

What is the FOS? Update: It's ok, I found out.

@dylan11235813 wrote:
I assume the sale was through ebay and as far as I can tell you should be protected under the paypal seller protection policy if you have a tracking number and a lodgement reciept with the delivery address (or at least the postcode).

It doesn't matter what the bank thinks and is paypals problem, your case should never have gotten to the point where you had to fight the banks for the claim (or paypal fight the banks on your behalf).

Have a look at paypals seller protection policy (for Australia / it is different to the USA one), if you believe that you meet all the requirements lodge an appeal and also put a complaint in with the FOS.

You should report the buyer to the online fraud website. Stealing and credit card fraud is a seriouse offence in my opinion and any police office that says there is not much that can be done is incompetent.

Re: Desperately need help/advice on chargeback

beach_and_home — Fri, 08 May 2015 03:27:53 GMT

You can get their phone number through ebay, at least the phone number they used for their ebay account. Go to "advanced search", then on the left there is an option for "find contact information". You need to put in the buyer's ID and the item number, and you will receive an email with hopefully a valid phone number.

Re: Desperately need help/advice on chargeback

nirv_australia — Fri, 08 May 2015 03:42:51 GMT

Thanks but I already tried that. It said that the item number was not valid as the item ended some time ago.

Re: Desperately need help/advice on chargeback

dylan11235813 — Fri, 08 May 2015 03:43:03 GMT

You might need to visit the mastercard website and look into their policy on chargebacks and what is required from the buyer. I would think something would need returning as well as some sort of proof. If mastercard have breached their policy you could then put a complaint in with the FOS.

At worst I think you could take them to the small claims court. I would be filing a police report for theft as well.

Re: Desperately need help/advice on chargeback

i-love-my-sheep — Fri, 08 May 2015 03:56:46 GMT

@nirv_australia wrote:
Thanks but I already tried that. It said that the item number was not valid as the item ended some time ago.

You have the buyers name and address, have you tried looking in the white pages? Might be worth a shot if they still have a landline.

Re: Desperately need help/advice on chargeback

nirv_australia — Fri, 08 May 2015 04:00:43 GMT

@i-love-my-sheep wrote:
@nirv_australia wrote:
Thanks but I already tried that. It said that the item number was not valid as the item ended some time ago.
You have the buyers name and address, have you tried looking in the white pages? Might be worth a shot if they still have a landline.

Yes, thanks, I did try this but there was nothing listed.

Re: Desperately need help/advice on chargeback

nirv_australia — Fri, 08 May 2015 04:02:10 GMT

@dylan11235813 wrote:
You might need to visit the mastercard website and look into their policy on chargebacks and what is required from the buyer. I would think something would need returning as well as some sort of proof. If mastercard have breached their policy you could then put a complaint in with the FOS.

At worst I think you could take them to the small claims court. I would be filing a police report for theft as well.

I will look into this, thanks.

Re: Desperately need help/advice on chargeback

dylan11235813 — Fri, 08 May 2015 04:32:48 GMT

It might be worthwhile asking over at the whirlpool forums as well as there are some quite knowledgeable people over there that run businesses outside of ebay.

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au

Re: Desperately need help/advice on chargeback

nirv_australia — Fri, 08 May 2015 05:37:36 GMT

@dylan11235813 wrote:
It might be worthwhile asking over at the whirlpool forums as well as there are some quite knowledgeable people over there that run businesses outside of ebay.

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au

I'll give it a look now, thanks.

Re: Desperately need help/advice on chargeback

thecatspjs — Fri, 08 May 2015 06:20:47 GMT

Mastercard has nothing to do with account management.

The card issuer (buyers bank) is the one that makes the descision to proceed with a chargeback, based on the information provided to them by the buyer.

My advice is to ring the bank again, and keep escalating if required to supervisors until you speak to someone with the appropriate knowledge. I would also encourage you to lodge a complaint about the banks actions and misinformation provided to you.

May be a frustrating call, but nonetheless will assist in providing information if you decide to lodge a complaint with the FSO. Jot down name and postions of people you are speaking to an include in complaint to the FSO.

Re: Desperately need help/advice on chargeback

dylan11235813 — Fri, 08 May 2015 06:27:52 GMT

I found information that basically said that it should be dealt with the bank as well. Specifically the ANZ, Westpac and CBA information booklets, they are all governed by the same rules also. I couldn't find any specific policy on the matter though.

Re: Desperately need help/advice on chargeback

a_beautiful_room — Fri, 08 May 2015 06:31:54 GMT

I've been here before and believe me if you want to be successful then you need to stand up and shout (not literally, figuratively) and KEEP SHOUTING!

Try to find the guy on facebook or Linkedin ... take what information you find

Ring the bank and don't let them off the phone till you have some answers (so frustrating as there will be no-one who can do anything other than follow the rule book, no-one has any power) But get names, make sure you have explained everthing, record everything you can.

Print out all of your reciepts, the listing, any communication, keep records

Start a case with the Financial Services Ombudsman, have found them very good, And the banks hate being listed for investigation so use that to your advantage.

If after a week or so you're not getting somewhere file a case at small claims court. Costs about $40 but they are GREAT. Every time I go, I win. The world is full of a-holes and if you don't stand up to them you're just allowing them to get away with it. If you can't file against the buyer, file against the bank for acting against common sense. Believe me it works. I've won a couple of cases against the NAB and CBA.

Every time you're thinking you can't be bothered remember that these people rely on others who can't be bothered. So put your hard hat on and vow to get justice. PM me if you need support or advice. Do it for yourself and every other retailer!

Re: Desperately need help/advice on chargeback

nirv_australia — Fri, 08 May 2015 06:40:11 GMT

Thank you everyone for your input. I appreciate it more than you know. I have been desperately frustrated at not being able to get any useful information from Paypal, the banks etc but the information provided to me in this thread has been incredibly helpful.

I put in a dispute against Paypal with the FOS this afternoon. But given the information that has been provided in this thread, it sounds like I should be doing it against the buyers bank. I will do that as well. I will also call the bank back and let them know that I know it is their call, not Mastercard's. I will insist to speak to someone who can help me.

Re: Desperately need help/advice on chargeback

clarry100 — Fri, 08 May 2015 06:46:23 GMT

I would also lodge a case with The ACORN as well since this has the smell of buyer fraud all over it.

They buyer should know that if he obtains a refund by whatever means then under Australian Consumer Law he is required to return the goods to the seller. In fact the return should have happened and been verified by you before any refund was made by the bank or PayPal.

So to me it seems PayPal have mis-handled this as well, and the FOS case against them should sort that one out for you.

If not then the one against the bank ought to anyway.