topic Re: Buyer received 'empty box' and filed dispute. Scam?! in Selling

Buyer received 'empty box' and filed dispute. Scam?!

hideldeedum — Sat, 06 Jun 2015 14:27:20 GMT

Need advice on what to do... I sold a piece of costume jewellery on the US site to a US buyer, after failing to sell it on AU ebay for the price I wanted. The item is a designer piece, so it's got some value and it was sold for a substantial amount. The buyer paid, I had it shipped with tracking and insurance and kept a very close eye on the delivery with the online tracking since it was an international shipment and item had some value, so was definitely paranoid! But to my relief, packaged arrived and delivery was confirmed - my paypal funds finally released for me to spend. Yay?!! WRONG!! Fast forward 2 weeks after receiving the item, the buyer files for non-receipt of goods through PayPal, claiming they received the package but box empty, no contents. After 2 weeks of receiving it and you're telling me now the box is empty?! Oh C'MON. Mind you, I did not get a message from the buyer about the issue straight after they received it. They waited 2 weeks to file this. I have a perfect 100% seller record, ebay member for 10 years, sold over more than 100 items some more than double the value of the item in question and have never had this problem before.. Buyer seems to have a good buying (100+) record with 1 or 2 off ones... I've now misplaced the receipt for insurance but still have tracking details on the web. I am smelling a scam due to the time it took for them to file the claim. What would be my best course of action and do you think PayPal will rule in my favour, given I have excellent selling record and tracking/delivery confirmation? Please let me know opinions on this - I am extremely peee'ddd to the core. :s

Re: Buyer received 'empty box' and filed dispute. Scam?!

myprivatecollectionvintagejewellery — Sat, 06 Jun 2015 14:53:50 GMT

Hi there firstly keep calm and very nicely ask the buyer to take a photo of the empty package including the postage receipt on the front and insure them not to worry as the item is fully insured. The photo will then show you the insurance number ie CV that should be on the pink. green and white form attached to the package.. I am of course assuming that you used this form. Then when you have a copy of the insurance postage receipt upload it to Paypal as evidence that a) the item is fully insured and b) that the item was delivered. (Also provide Paypal with the tracking by scanning it and uploading).

The photos may or may not show a rip in the package where the item could have fallen out or have been pinched and the buyer could simply do it themselves but it would be a pretty stupid buyer to sign for a package that had a gapping hole in it without questioning the postal worker first.

You should then inform Paypal that the dispute is the first that you have heard of a problem especially as the package was delivered two weeks ago. You should inform Paypal that you intend to lodge a claim for the package with Auspost who will require at least 2 months to complete an investigation etc etc etc.

You may win. You may lose however if you lose the case with Paypal immediately inform them that you intend to lodge a case against them with the Financial Ombudsman and do so and send Paypal the lodgement number from Ombudsman. As soon as Paypal receive information that you have done this your money will be very quickly returned.

Just count your lucky stars that they opened a dispute through the Paypal system where the Financial Ombudsman gives them some stick.

Re: Buyer received 'empty box' and filed dispute. Scam?!

hideldeedum — Sat, 06 Jun 2015 15:31:19 GMT

Thank you for your input on this @myprivatecollection.., but what happens if the buyer disposes of the post packaging the item came in and doesn't have or 'can't remember' the minor details I need? I will need to call up Australia Post to obtain the insurance and shipping address details - no problem... but there's no way to disprove the box was empty because it's their word against mine.

I did call up PayPal out of frustration and spoke to the guy there who was understanding enough to see what was happening. He did agree it looked suspicious but couldn't do anything about it yet until the buyer takes action within the next 20 days. I can escalate the dispute on my part to counter their story but the guy told me to wait it out as it may compromise my claim? WTH?!! My account is on hold and it says -$××××, I won't be able to pay for what I've purchased lately so it is bothering me to boiling point!

I don't know if I should contact the buyer, if anything they should have contacted me first! I'm worried I might not be able to talk in a civil manner and that again, might compromise my situation.. oh the humanity!!!

I will definitely pursue all actions needed to win this case and not letting them get my money and freebie. Never selling overseas AGAIN!!

Re: Buyer received 'empty box' and filed dispute. Scam?!

clarry100 — Sat, 06 Jun 2015 19:54:43 GMT

If you do lose the case you might also try reporting the apparent scam to The ACORN. Doing this will get the federal police involved. Also let PayPal know you have done this and give them the report number. You maybe able to get the decision overturned.

Re: Buyer received 'empty box' and filed dispute. Scam?!

joethenuts — Sat, 06 Jun 2015 21:50:50 GMT

hi does the package have a weight on it , or do you have a weight on the docket, for instance 600gm posted and now its only 200gm empty box .could help your case

Re: Buyer received 'empty box' and filed dispute. Scam?!

phorum_junkie* — Sun, 07 Jun 2015 04:20:05 GMT

Inform the buyer that you take this very seriously as it looks as if someone in the postal system has stolen the item which would be a federal crime and you will be initiating a complaint with the relevant federal authority in the US.

If that doesn't have them miraculously 'fimding' the item I will be very surprised

Re: Buyer received 'empty box' and filed dispute. Scam?!

vintagejewelleryemporium — Sun, 07 Jun 2015 04:53:46 GMT

Hi again, yes they will probably say they have disposed of the package but one would wonder why? The reason I asked you to get them to do so was so that you could get a copy of the insurance form which you said you have misplaced. Nevertheless whilst it might sound like a scam you never know as afterall you are dealing with a different culture albeit American and when its summer over there they go into shut down mode.

The most important thing is that it is fully insured and the buyer must know this so you need to get them to give you an account of exactly what happened ie when they received it, who delivered it, did they sign for it, did they notice anything about the package when it was delivered such as a rip etc etc etc.

I have had this happen to me twice with American buyers. The first item I had only sent via registered mail and whilst I could prove it was delivered I couldnt prove that the item was or wanst inside as the buyer was uncooperative and I believe from her feedback of continually thanking sellers for refunds for non received items etc. The second one was posted fully insured which is the only way I will now send overseas except for Canada who wont insure. This time the buyer stated that the jewellery wasnt in there but that there was a whistle and a flag. She refused to give an account of anything and refused to cooperate with the insurance claim so that Paypal found in my favour. However the first case with the registered mail they found in favour of the buyer. I lodged a dispute with the Financial Ombudsman against Paypal and my money was refunded as an ex gratia payment by Paypal. Whenever I have lost a case with Paypal I have "won" with a dispute to the Ombudsman.

As I stated previously I would provide Paypal with all information in particular that the item is insured and that you intend to claim through Auspost and stipulate that this will take at least 2 months. You can then get Auspost to confirm this and send Paypal updates from Auspost. I had a lost parcel which was fully insured and it too me six months to be refunded by Auspost after I had refunded the buyer so they are really slow. Your saving grace with Auspost if they dont do the right thing and assist you in a timely manner is the Postal Ombudsman which also works a treat to get them to move.

Unfortunately there is nothing you can do about the money on hold unless Paypal agree that the insurance will cover the buyers costs if Auspost investigations find it warranted.

Re: Buyer received 'empty box' and filed dispute. Scam?!

snowbunnies2016 — Sun, 07 Jun 2015 13:07:05 GMT

The whole thing with claims these days seems to be heading down the road that one must now record via video any items they are posting as proof, from putting the item into a satchel/box etc, labelling it and handing it over at the PO counter. The mere fact that you have tracking becomes useless when a buyer claims they received an empty package!

Re: Buyer received 'empty box' and filed dispute. Scam?!

hideldeedum — Sun, 07 Jun 2015 16:49:35 GMT

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I have tried to reach the buyer on Ebay and have requested her account on what happened and details of the packaging etc... but she has so far been non co-operative and has not attempted to contact me outside of Paypal whatsoever... she has now escalated the claim and has made a comment where the package was delivered and left at 'her door' and not in the mailbox with no ground details of the condition of the package itself when she received it. So given the circumstance that the postie left it where he wasn't supposed to, how is that my fault? I am still unclear on what happened to the package itself, and waiting for her next response to see what she comes up with. I will keep you all posted.

Re: Buyer received 'empty box' and filed dispute. Scam?!

clarry100 — Sun, 07 Jun 2015 21:26:51 GMT

It's getting difficult to defend these kind of claims. You almost need a security camera overhead of your packing table recording your every move whilst packing and closing boxes. Also put a couple of strips of that tamper proof security tape on the internal box that must be broken to open it. Must be some way to defend against this.

Re: Buyer received 'empty box' and filed dispute. Scam?!

clarry100 — Sun, 07 Jun 2015 21:30:45 GMT

If we order expensive items online like phones we always ask the delivery guy to wait a few minutes while we open the package in his presence until we verify that the contents are intact. That way if it had been stolen in transit we have a good witness who can verify that fact.

Re: Buyer received 'empty box' and filed dispute. Scam?!

max-power-models — Sun, 07 Jun 2015 22:59:01 GMT

Pretty sure if you go to the LPO were you posted it with the tracking number they can provide you with all info you need.

I thought I was in for a dispute case similar to yours last month. I will only post international registered mail from now on, as its the only way you can protect your self from PP or Feebay.

Unfortunatley PP have a very biased approach to "resovling" these isssues. As others said get the AFP involved and send PP as much proof as you can.

You should tell your customer to file a report to the police in the US, as laws governing the US Post come under federal law there.

Personally if I opened the box and found it empty I would have been in touch right away.

Good luck with your dispute.

Re: Buyer received 'empty box' and filed dispute. Scam?!

joethenuts — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 00:32:16 GMT

no offence clarry , but drivers dont have enough time to get the parcel out of the van , thats why you get carded a lot. let alone wasting minutes opening up parcels and checking if everything is there ,and counting to see if the right number of articles are there. could you imagine a driver going to deliver a can of paint ,taking 5 minutes to take off the tape of the lid and then looking for a screwdriver to open the can and then the buyer says [I ordered cream not green ] lol

Re: Buyer received 'empty box' and filed dispute. Scam?!

springyzone — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 00:59:49 GMT

If I worked for ebay or paypal, I would be very suspicious of anyone who filed a claim about an empty box 2 weeks after signing for it.

No matter what excuse they came up with-being away, busy etc the fact is they did have a window of opportunity & you could assume they probably used it. They signed for the package so you would think they opend it once they got inside. Not as if it was a huge package if it was jewellery.

Even if you were busy, if you found an empty box when you had paid a lot for something, you would be messaging that seller straight off, or any normal person would be.

This is a really difficult area, it is a ploy that never would have entered my head-that someone would send or (from the opposite perspective), claim to have received an empty box. It is actually a bit scary as a seller would think they had themselves covered by having their post tracked or signed for.

I suppose the difficulty as I see it is that even if you have a photo of the weight of the package, when it is something small such as jewellery, a scammer could pop the empty pack onto scales and get it to show the 'right' weight or close enough to it.

Good luck. I would like to hear how you get on.

Re: Buyer received 'empty box' and filed dispute. Scam?!

joethenuts — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 01:11:09 GMT

is a catch22 ....in this case the seller will win as it was tracked and delivered ,but maybe the buyer could win with not as discribed .

[you coukd just see an ebay rep going to the home of the buyer and saying tell me madam was the metal metal gold or silver [buyer says not realy] ebay rep says was there diamonds or rubys in it [buyer says not realy] ebay rep says can you describe the jewerly [buyer says come with me ] and she opens an empty draw in her cabinet , and the ebay rep says theres nothing in the draw [the buyer says thats what I have been trying to tell you [there was nothing in the box] &%*&*%*

Re: Buyer received 'empty box' and filed dispute. Scam?!

clarry100 — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 01:23:35 GMT

We have done this on two separate occasions with a DHL delivery.

It was for mobile phones we had ordered online so quite an expensive purchase. They had come in from HK.

The delivery guy was very happy to wait 5-minutes while we opened and verified the package contents.

And said he would have been happy to provide any required witness statements had the package been empty.

I'm not suggesting you do it for inexpensive items.

Re: Buyer received 'empty box' and filed dispute. Scam?!

joethenuts — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 01:35:33 GMT

the trouble is an aust post driver does not have 5 minutes he prob does a drop off every 5 minutes , and what do you clasify as expensive $100...$25....$500.. everybody is different ,and if everybody did the same ,they woulkd only do half there deliveries a day which would bring costs up a lot would take twice as long to deliver , its just not feesable for a driver to wait 5 minutes ,look I dont blame you but 20 a day thats an hour, how do they make that up ,they are under presure most times aust post are trying to cut back on most things except the big boss.

Re: Buyer received 'empty box' and filed dispute. Scam?!

expanded_perceptions — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 03:26:37 GMT

@clarry100 wrote:
It's getting difficult to defend these kind of claims. You almost need a security camera overhead of your packing table recording your every move whilst packing and closing boxes. Also put a couple of strips of that tamper proof security tape on the internal box that must be broken to open it. Must be some way to defend against this.

Yes sadly it is! I know like me, you already go to great lengths to protect yourself as much as is possible, it really bugs me that it is getting harder and harder to fight the scammers!

Perhaps one way of doing this is for sellers to team up who live locally and witness all packaging and if needed can later sign a stat dec to back up another seller. It would have to fit around each others lifestyles and work better if both sellers have similar sales volumes? Perhaps a whole cooperative of sellers in certain areas so that there are many options? I would be willing to trial this, and am located in the Inner West area of Sydney if anyone wants to do this?

Re: Buyer received 'empty box' and filed dispute. Scam?!

digital*ghost — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 03:57:41 GMT

@joethenuts wrote:
is a catch22 ....in this case the seller will win as it was tracked and delivered ,but maybe the buyer could win with not as discribed .

A PayPal dispute for the box arriving empty is a Not As Described claim, it can't be an INR because a package was received.

Unfortunately, most of the time it's buyer's word against the seller's, because there is (usually) virtually no physical evidence either one can submit to prove their side. OP, I would suggest maybe getting the jump and putting your word in official (legal) terms, by submitting a statutory declaration to confirm the item was posted to the buyer etc. PayPal can not ignore a legal document when weighting what little evidence there may be. (By which I mean they can, but then I would think you'll be in a better position to contest their decision if they do).

Re: Buyer received 'empty box' and filed dispute. Scam?!

clarry100 — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 05:01:19 GMT

I should imagine that as long as there is one other person in the house (or wherever) at the time you are packing who knows/sees that you are packing the items and sending them that the stat dec should stack up.

Even if that other person is your partner.