topic Re: legal challenge in Selling

legal challenge

mypoppygirl — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 11:20:42 GMT

Had a buyer purchase something from us and claimed that we sent the wrong item.

Ebay ruled in our favour and so did Paypal but the buyer went to the credit card company for a charge back.

We have overwhelming evidence that we sent the right item but as many hundreds of dollars are involved, we do want to lose this and usually credit card companies rule in favour of their clients, unless a pattern of chargebacks appear.

The question we would like to ask is this. We are in Australia and the buyer is in the US. What options have we got to challenge this person through the legal avenues? Perhaps some other avenue?

Is there any free legal aide offices available in the US? The buyer is in Chicago.

Re: legal challenge

kopenhagen5 — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 11:24:46 GMT

Do you know which bank it is in the USA?

Re: legal challenge

lyndal1838 — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 11:36:00 GMT

Check with paypal but it is my understanding that if you have won a paypal dispute then you have seller protection in the event of a bank chargeback.

Before you ring paypal have a look at the Agreement you have signed with paypal. If there is a large amount of money involved they will try and wriggle out of it but if you are sure of the terms of your agreement you can bluff them. If necessary you can go to the FOS.

Re: legal challenge

lyndal1838 — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:07:28 GMT

@mypoppygirl wrote:
The question we would like to ask is this. We are in Australia and the buyer is in the US. What options have we got to challenge this person through the legal avenues? Perhaps some other avenue?
Is there any free legal aide offices available in the US? The buyer is in Chicago.

Don't even think of trying to take legal action in the USA unless the item was worth tens of thousands of dollars.

If you think legal action in Australia is expensive then you will find legal action in the USA is even more expensive.

I think you will find legal aid offices are only for US citizens.

Re: legal challenge

phorum_junkie* — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:20:11 GMT

You could perhaps tell the seller you will report them to the Federal Authorities for frauud and obtaining goods by deception. It may be the case that the purchase was made with a cloned or stolen credit card in which case the card owner is entitled to their money back and as long as you have the correct proof you should be covered by Paypal however it s the person at the address you sent it to who has done the wrong thing so as long as you are sure of your level of proof yoou can report them to the US Federal department that deals with internet fraud, I cannot remember off hand what it is called but someone may be along who will know.

Re: legal challenge

lyndal1838 — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:38:19 GMT

PJ I believe it is the FBI that is responsible for internet fraud.

Some years ago I was investigating the AU internet fraud site (Queensland police at the time) and they gave links to international sites....it was the FBI in the USA.

Can you confirm that if a seller wins a paypal dispute they have seller protection against a chargeback? I am sure someone told me that but as I am not a seller I am not 100% sure.

Re: legal challenge

mypoppygirl — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 23:15:23 GMT

Palpal does not cover credit card charge backs unfortunately.

Re: legal challenge

mypoppygirl — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 23:16:19 GMT

Also because of the privacy agreement Paypal will not disclose their bank details

Re: legal challenge

everard6920 — Thu, 13 Aug 2015 01:42:40 GMT

@mypoppygirl wrote:
Palpal does not cover credit card charge backs unfortunately.

I'm not sure that's correct (although there may be a limit for the amount covered).

I had a US buyer file a chargeback some time ago; they also filed chargebacks with approximately 15 other sellers over a period of 6 months. All sellers who had proof of shipment were covered.

It was blatantly obvious that this person was committing fraud. Their username included the name of a popular character - and all of the items they had purchased (ever - not just throughout the 6 months) were items depicting said character. Two days after they filed the chargebacks and "reclaimed" their account, they changed their username - to another variation of the first username, and it again included the name of the character.

If they weren't committing fraud, then what are the chances that someone got into their eBay and Paypal accounts, and just so happened to be fans of the exact same character that they were a fan of? Not likely.

This is exactly why I stopped posting overseas - if anything goes wrong, it can cost you a fortune. US banks seem to approach chargebacks differently than Australian banks - it's pretty much guaranteed that a US bank will give the buyer their money back if they file a chargeback, even if there is overwhelming evidence that they are committing fraud. Australian banks are, in my experience, more cautious.

That's without even mentioning having to pay the cost of international postage if someone wants to return something. No thanks!

Re: legal challenge

bookmanx500 — Thu, 13 Aug 2015 02:44:26 GMT

Paypal don't cover chargebacks for SNAD, even if you have won a PP case..

I would upload all possible information to PP. i.e. fight the chargeback.
Request that the item be returned to you.

And when/if it goes against you, file a complaint with FOS

Barrie

Re: legal challenge

clarry100 — Thu, 13 Aug 2015 02:49:35 GMT

PayPal do cover chargebacks so long as you meet all their requirements.

ie have tracking and proof of postage etc.

Its all part of seller protection.

We had a case raised against us for a very small amount only $4.00.

The item was sent out as a regular letter, hence no tracking.

Because we had a very good track record on the account they did indeed cover us even tho we did not have tracking.

In that case the buyer still got to keep their item and get their money back too via the chargeback, but we also did not loose the $4.00 or the $15 fee they normally charge if you contest it.

We had to agree to accept full responsibility before they would do that tho.

I spent a while on the phone with a very helpful CSR in the USA to achieve that outcome.

Re: legal challenge

mypoppygirl — Thu, 13 Aug 2015 06:26:40 GMT

Barrie, I have proof that the buyer was lying and there are many inconsistencies with their story. Additionally they want to send us something that they claimed we sent them. It is something that has never been our property and they want us to pay return shipping costs. It is further insult to injury. I contacted the FBI and the FOS today gave me the phone number of the ACCC. It appears I am powerless and this person will get away with it. I believe that ideally it would be best if there was some service available in Chicago that can assist us, where they could act on our behalf.

Re: legal challenge

donnashuggy — Thu, 13 Aug 2015 06:35:22 GMT

If paypal were doing their job properly they should be fighting this with the credit card company, surely?

Re: legal challenge

mypoppygirl — Thu, 13 Aug 2015 06:40:37 GMT

I agree but remembering that it is your money that is at stake here and not theirs. So I believe it is resonable to question their efforts in respect to it all. Additionally Paypal will not disclose the buyer's credit card agency to us citing their privacy policy.

This person has done it all before. It was all to swift moving from ebay to paypal and then the credit card charge back. Even their feedback suggested they had done this serveral times before.

Re: legal challenge

donnashuggy — Thu, 13 Aug 2015 06:45:27 GMT

There is account escalations with paypal, you could try that.

This doesn't seem right don't give up.

Re: legal challenge

kopenhagen5 — Thu, 13 Aug 2015 07:07:52 GMT

If you know which bank it is or can just find out the name, I would be faxing all the details explaining PayPal closed in your favour and warning the bank they may be dealing with an opportunist providing proof of delivery, their name and address etc.

The bank may view the charge back differently knowing PayPal saw in your favour.

Re: legal challenge

everard6920 — Thu, 13 Aug 2015 07:41:29 GMT

@mypoppygirl wrote:
Barrie, I have proof that the buyer was lying and there are many inconsistencies with their story. Additionally they want to send us something that they claimed we sent them. It is something that has never been our property and they want us to pay return shipping costs. It is further insult to injury. I contacted the FBI and the FOS today gave me the phone number of the ACCC. It appears I am powerless and this person will get away with it. I believe that ideally it would be best if there was some service available in Chicago that can assist us, where they could act on our behalf.

Okay, first of all: do you have the original receipt for the article, and if so, does it list the weight of the article? I'd imagine there'd be a difference in the weight if the item they want to return is different. I've heard of people winning cases based on weight discrepancies. I'd talk to Paypal about it if you choose to accept the "return" though. You need to know what the ramifications would be if the weight of the returned article is different (and what you'd need to do to prove it eg: opening in front of an AP employee).

Second of all, you may also want to ask this question on the US eBay board. Some of the policies differ, and we may be overlooking something. Someone over there might be able to help.

Re: legal challenge

lyndal1838 — Thu, 13 Aug 2015 08:19:05 GMT

As far as I can make out from the CURRENT paypal agreement you are covered for a chargeback if you have seller protection.

As the OP has already wona paypal dispute it seems that she does have seller protection.

Just keep on at paypal to follow their own rules. But stress that you are talking about the current agreement.....the new agreement does not come into force till September.

Re: legal challenge

mypoppygirl — Thu, 13 Aug 2015 22:44:33 GMT

Rang Paypal. they insist that credit card charge backs are not covered. Sad isn't it. I will not be selling abroad any more. It is not worth it

Re: legal challenge

aussiebargains_2011 — Thu, 13 Aug 2015 22:46:12 GMT

Get on to the Financial services Ombudsman, they usually help