topic Re: Had to happen eventually. in Selling

Had to happen eventually.

pennyforum14 — Sat, 12 Mar 2016 21:50:39 GMT

95% of my items are posted by large letter, and for the last two years I have been photographing each item at the PO after the PO worker has applied the postage label and stamped the envelope or box (I use 16mm high letter size boxes for small items). I woke up this morning to my first ever Paypal chargeback (in over 12 years), so I guess this becomes my test case to see if my process is worth the effort.

I have uploaded the photo of the item in question which shows it was posted to the address on the Paypal notification, on the same day it was purchased. I also uploaded a screenshot of my feedback page showing that the buyer left positive feedback acknowledging receipt of the item. The item was purchased and sent on 4/3, feedback was received on 11/3, and chargeback initiated on 12/3.

Anything else I need to do? May I add this is for a $7 purchase (including postage).

Re: Had to happen eventually.

clarry100 — Sat, 12 Mar 2016 22:14:54 GMT

Well for what its worth Penny....

About 18-months back we had a similar situation on a large letter, but we had no such photograph.

I called PayPal about it and they said that without tracking I will lose the case.

However, they did say that having a photograph exactly as you describe would suffice as proof of postage.

So far as I know its never been tested, so I wait eagerly to find out.

Like yours ours was also a $5 item and PayPal actually agreed to give us a discretionary refund of the $5 so we did not lose the money just the case. This they said was based on our excellent trading track record with no other cases ever having being raised against us.

Of course, the buyer got their refund via their bank and got to keep the item.

So I think there is a good chance you may win this one, or at least get their discretionary refund.

Re: Had to happen eventually.

chameleon54 — Sat, 12 Mar 2016 22:32:37 GMT

Sorry to hear your story Penny and good luck with the case.

You have spent a lot of time and work trying to cover yourself. Over a period of months or years, this would amount to a huge expenditure in time and effort. I can appreciate that no seller enjoys being scammed by unscrupulous buyers, but is the effort cost effective ?

It would depend a lot on what you sell. Some products attract a lot more problem buyers than others, but in my field, unscrupulous claims are not a major problem. I add a small amount to my postage and handling costs as self insurance. When theres a claim made, I test the buyer a bit by asking them to check with their local post office and neighbours, wait a week to see if the item turns up before contacting me again etc. If they still claim to have not recieved the item, I just refund and move on.

If your product catagory has a lot of problem buyers, ( computer games, mobile phones etc. ) this system may not be suitable.

Re: Had to happen eventually.

jfmgray — Sat, 12 Mar 2016 22:33:52 GMT

This will be a very interesting test case. I have considered photographing envellopes like you describe, but as I send up to 20 each day, I have resisted. However I did it once for an expensive item sent overseas which never arrived. I asked the buyer to lodge a paypal claim rather than an eBay dispute, and in discussion with paypal they advised be that the photograph with the APO lodgemet stamp would satisy their seller protection requirements of proof of lodgement. However the buyer went the eBay route and that was the end of that.

But are the saeller protection rules the same for a chargeback?? If so, you should be OK as you can provide prrof of lodgement.

Re: Had to happen eventually.

jfmgray — Sat, 12 Mar 2016 22:40:16 GMT

Penny - I would be curious to know if you have had any late shipment defects and if the photo is acceptable to eBay as proof of lodgement within your handling time?

Re: Had to happen eventually.

pennyforum14 — Sat, 12 Mar 2016 23:11:00 GMT

Actually, the whole process takes no longer that it did before I started taking photos. I can have up to 20 letters a day as well (although not so many recently, but that's another thread altogether, and one I haven't posted yet, lol), but the PO staff and I have this down to a fine art. They weigh all the envelopes first, sort them into postage rates, then print a run of labels for each rate, one by one they apply the label, stamp the envelope and put it in front of me. In the time it takes to apply the next label and stamp the envelope, I have already photographed the one before, so it takes no additional time at all. This is probably why I continue to do it, even though until now, I have never needed to test it for validity.

I self-insure as well, and in the case of non-receipt I very quickly replace or refund, it has only happened two or three times in total. I have however used the photo on one occasion to reassure the buyer that the item was in fact posted. They had taken eBay's postage estmate as a firm delivery date (as so many do) and were asking why they had not received their item (three business days after posting to the other side of the country, and before I extended my handling time from 1 day to 3). I sent them a copy of the photo and asked them to give it a few more days. They left feedback the next day and must have answered yes to the delivery question as I did not get a late shipment defect.

The photo process to me is more for this type of thing. It may only be a $7 sale, but if the chargeback is successful, I believe I will be hit with a $20 bank fee on top, and if the process prevents this, I will be happy to keep taking pictures.

Re: Had to happen eventually.

jensmanchester-australia — Sat, 12 Mar 2016 23:18:01 GMT

If you accept liability (even though it is technically not your fault) the chargeback fee is usually waived by Paypal.

Re: Had to happen eventually.

pennyforum14 — Sat, 12 Mar 2016 23:24:07 GMT

Accept liability for what Jen? The buyer is saying they didn't authorise the purchase, even if that is true, what part of that is my responsibility? I don't see that there is anything I can accept liability for, and Paypal didn't ask if I accept responsibility for anything, they just asked me to upload evidence of shipping so that they can pass this evidence on to the bank.

Re: Had to happen eventually.

twyngwyn — Sat, 12 Mar 2016 23:31:27 GMT

same thing happened to me....I won, purely on the basis that they had left positive feedback - but it did take a phonecall

Re: Had to happen eventually.

pennyforum14 — Sat, 12 Mar 2016 23:50:06 GMT

I have not yet had any late shipping defects, so I can't say as yet whether eBay would accept photographic evidence, I'm not hopeful. I increased my handling time to 3 days to give a buffer zone between Auspost and eBay delivery estimates, although I post every day and generally orders go out same day or next day. I have been petitioning eBay at every opportunity to recognise that Large Letter Postage is a valid postage method and in the interests of buyers in the long run. I have asked them to provide a mechanism for sellers to upload photographic evidence of postage for large letters the same way they can upload tracking information for parcels. I'm not holding my breath, but I'm not going to stop asking either.

Re: Had to happen eventually.

clarry100 — Sat, 12 Mar 2016 23:56:46 GMT

Accept liability is the PayPal term for do not contest it. This is what I had to do as well.

Accept liability automatically meant I would lose the case without any tracking evidence, but they gave me the discretionary refund of the same amount in dispute anyway. So we did not lose any money at the end of the day.

Back then the fee was $15 but may have gone up to $20 now. And yes if you accept liability they waive that fee.

In your case since you have submitted evidence then that means you are already contesting the case so if you lose now they will slug you the fee as well.

Rather than contest it I called them first and their advice was to accept liability to avoid the fee.

Hope it all works for you.

Re: Had to happen eventually.

jensmanchester-australia — Sat, 12 Mar 2016 23:59:55 GMT

@pennyforum14 wrote:
Accept liability for what Jen? The buyer is saying they didn't authorise the purchase, even if that is true, what part of that is my responsibility? I don't see that there is anything I can accept liability for, and Paypal didn't ask if I accept responsibility for anything, they just asked me to upload evidence of shipping so that they can pass this evidence on to the bank.

Penny - I totally agree that it is nothing to do with the seller being liable but it was a work around to avoid the fee.

If sellers are unable to supply proof of shipping, then the last time I had a chargeback there was the option to accept liability so Paypal could release the funds back to the bank. This used to avoid being charged the $15.00 fee

Re: Had to happen eventually.

pennyforum14 — Sun, 13 Mar 2016 00:09:52 GMT

I saw no such option, but I might have missed it, I was a bit in shock at a $7 chargeback for an item the buyer had just left positive feedback for.

It would be nice if Paypal had mentioned that there were two ways to deal with this sort of thing. This is my first charge-back so I am really flying blind. I might have just agreed to it had I known that was an option, but it doesn't matter, I had to test the system I'm using at some point, probably better to test it with a small money sale than a large one.

Re: Had to happen eventually.

247newdeals — Sun, 13 Mar 2016 00:26:52 GMT

Ouch I did not even know PayPal had a chargeback fee I will watch out for that. Hope it works in your favour Penny

Re: Had to happen eventually.

pennyforum14 — Sun, 13 Mar 2016 00:28:03 GMT

I meant to ask before, should I contact the buyer at all? I read somewhere that sometimes it is the bank that instigates these things if they deem the purchase to be out of character for the buyer, and that sometimes the buyer is unaware. Is it worth asking the question or should I just follow the process and leave it at that?

Re: Had to happen eventually.

saarzi — Sun, 13 Mar 2016 01:10:22 GMT

I havent read the other replies because, well, after a thread gets to about 5 replies Im too lazy to read them all Lol

but... I dont see how a photo at the post office will prove anything. There could be anything in that satchel, even if you took a photo as you were packing it, you could have taken it out and replaced it with something else. How have you proven its the item? How do you prove you handed it over after it was stamped? You could have taken it back.

Not saying you did, obviously, but I can image Ebay ignoring the photos, because theyre not really proof of anything.

Re: Had to happen eventually.

pennyforum14 — Sun, 13 Mar 2016 01:41:02 GMT

It shows it was given over the counter and accepted by the PO, they don't let you take things back once they have accepted them. As for what was inside, how does adding a tracking number to eBay or Paypal screens provide any more evidence that what you sent was what was ordered?

Re: Had to happen eventually.

247newdeals — Sun, 13 Mar 2016 02:00:26 GMT

Penny, I may be wrong on this, just having a read about the charge back fee and it is when a buyer contacts their credit card company and says they did not authorise the transaction or other problem. So if the item was posted or not want really matter as I say I may be reading this wrong but that is what I have made of it.

Re: Had to happen eventually.

pennyforum14 — Sun, 13 Mar 2016 02:07:53 GMT

I believe (from reading Paypal's FAQ on charge backs) that if you can prove that the item was sent to the address on Paypal, while it may not satisfy the bank and they may uphold the charge back, Paypal seller protection kicks in and they don't charge you. The fact that the buyer left positive feedback is a good sign that the purchase was not unauthorised. I'm hoping so anyway.

Re: Had to happen eventually.

bf1952 — Sun, 13 Mar 2016 02:07:58 GMT

As for contacting the buyer - I personally would.

The same thing happened to me. I sold an item - it was received and feedback left - then chargeback. I contacted the seller who was horrified and contacted her bank immediately.

She rang me back apologising profusely.

Seems she had just got married and changed her name - she hadn't got around to changing her name on her Bank Account so the Bank initiated the chargeback.

All fixed. Chargeback dropped when she visited the Bank and changed her name.