topic Re: What Are the Chances? in Selling

What Are the Chances?

*tippy*toes* — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 05:54:00 GMT

Sold an item on June 24th. I had no watchers on other items and when the buyer hadn't paid after 2 days I sent an invoice. Buyer has low feedback so I thought maybe they were waiting for one. By the 28th, I'd heard nothing and there was no payment, so I opened an UPI. On day 3 of the UPI I sent a message asking if she planned on paying for the item and that if she's changed her mind, that's OK, but she needs to let me know. If she hadn't paid by the time the UPI was closed, she would get a black mark on her account and her buying privileges could be restricted. I heard nothing back.

5 minutes before I closed the dispute, she paid. It was a Saturday, so I posted first thing Monday, which was July 4th. As I always do, I uploaded the tracking number into the order details. Tracking showed delivered on July 8. The My Post app also indicated it had been delivered and by that stage, I had no outstanding undelivered tracking numbers. I had already ended all my listings on all 3 accounts a few days before due to having to go away for a sick family member, so was pleased that everything was showing as delivered.

You can imagine my surprise when I received notification of an INR dispute opened against me. I double checked the tracking number, yes, it shows delivered at her local PO. My first ever INR. In fact, my first ever dispute! I responded to the dispute by uploading the tracking number. In the comment box I cut and pasted the tracking details off the AP website, showing the item as being delivered on the 8th and I also added a message to the buyer explaining that tracking is showing as delivered, blah blah blah, polite, polite, polite and said I look forward to hearing back from them. Nothing. Just like when she bought the item. Nothing.

I sent eBay a message this morning asking how I can close the dispute as the buyer is not responding. They replied within a few minutes and said yes, the tracking is definitely showing as delivered and arrived before my handling time was even expired, let alone the delivery estimate. They said I have done everything correctly and will be covered by seller protection. I pointed out that PayPal has blocked my account, even though I had more than enough to cover the disputed amount, so I can't pay for purchases I've made and I can see that eBay has tried to take their fees and failed.

They said I could escalate the dispute tomorrow. As in, ask ebay to step in and help. I said that when that happens, eBay will instantly close the dispute in favour of the buyer and refund them for an item they have received. I went into the whole spiel about it. I asked how they would recoup the money from the buyer after refund, because I would be very angry if she got to keep the money and eBay refunded me out of their pocket. They basically promised it would close in my favour.

So, after a very long winded message, what are the chances of me asking eBay to step in and help and the dispute being found in my favour? I actually wonder if she's opened the dispute on the wrong seller because I can see by her feedback she has bought quite a bit from China. I know she has got the item. She has a PO box and the tracking says it was delivered to her local post office. I do believe she's trying one on because that account only has 5 feedback. Maybe she thinks a dispute will scare a new seller to refund.

Has anyone escalated an INR dispute when tracking has showed as being delivered and had the dispute closed in their favour? I just have a bad feeling if I escalate, this woman will get away with it and encourage her to try it on with other sellers.

Re: What Are the Chances?

clarry100 — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 06:01:41 GMT

Can't see how you could lose as the tracking says delivered.

Does the tracking number link to the buyer's paypal address?

Ebay may refund her out of their pocket but not from yours.

Don't think there would be anything you could do about that if they did it.

If it is really not received (ie incorrectly delivered) then it would be up to the buyer to chase Aust Post for compensation not you as you have done everything right as I see it.

Re: What Are the Chances?

*tippy*toes* — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 06:26:29 GMT

The only link to the buyers address is that it was delivered to the post office where her PO box is. I did say in my original message to check with the post office as someone had collected it as it was marked as being delivered. Given how she chooses to ignore all messages sent, I wasn't expecting a reply.

I'll escalate tomorrow when the option appears and see what happens. If the usual trick happens that they instantly close in the buyers favour, then I'll call them and put a rocket under them. I will also refer them to the email correspondence today.

What concerns me is, when I went to send the email to eBay, via the help and contact, the subject was prefilled in saying "it looks like the item hasn't arrived yet". For some reason their automated system isn't showing it as being delivered, even though it's showing as delivered on the order details page. Given the disputes are decided by a computer, it could well go in her favour because the tracking needs to be checked by a person to show the delivery staus.

I just went in to help and contact again and clicked on email to see what came up and the prefilled subject said "there is still time to upload a tracking number". The previous page was telling me that they couldn't detect a tracking number and to upload one if I have it. I've uploaded it twice now! I got the same message this morning, which was why I uploaded it a 2nd time. It was after that that the prefilled subject showed as the item hasn't arrived yet.

I just want this over with so PayPal unlocks my account. The dispute was for $35. I have over $100 in there and can't pay for anything. Thankfully I have understanding sellers. I thought when there was a dispute only the disputed amount was locked, but it seems not.

Re: What Are the Chances?

digital*ghost — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 06:39:10 GMT

@*tippy*toes* wrote:

What concerns me is, when I went to send the email to eBay, via the help and contact, the subject was prefilled in saying "it looks like the item hasn't arrived yet". For some reason their automated system isn't showing it as being delivered, even though it's showing as delivered on the order details page. Given the disputes are decided by a computer, it could well go in her favour because the tracking needs to be checked by a person to show the delivery staus.

Not all carriers are integrated with eBay, so while it wouldn't be overly surprising, it would be monumentally stupid for eBay to fully automate what happens after escalation when a tracking number has been provided.

In saying that, I've not experienced a scenario like this, just seen/heard plenty enough for me to not be able to guarantee eBay isn't monumentally stupid.

My best suggestion would be to contact them again once you get the opportunity to escalate, that way you can be more sure someone is manually reviewing the information provided.

Re: What Are the Chances?

davidc4430 — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 09:39:02 GMT

maybe the old message saying as your investigation shows the item delivered but a item not recieved case has been opened you will be contacting acorn ect ect and they will take over the investigation as theft of mail is seen as a serious crime blah blah blah.

might scare her into a retraction if she thinks the feds might come calling

Re: What Are the Chances?

janeababe — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 09:39:04 GMT

Mate, All i can say is that the same thing happened to me, only in reverse.
I was the buyer, item posted with tracking. Tracking said delivered, but I didnt have it.
I went to the PO (took a bloody half day off to do that, due to my work roster!) and they said that even though tracking said delivered, they still couldnt guarentee delivery.

Ebay found in my favour. (the buyer) I felt awful for the seller, but I was in constant contact with my seller, and he to me EXCEPT he never responded to the INR dispute until after it had closed. Silly really.

So, the long and the short of it is.... ebay hasnt got a clue, the post office doesnt have a clue, we dont have a clue, and yet, the world keeps spinning! LOL

I hope it all works out for you. It does sound like your buyer might be a bit of a *I'll show her* type of buyer!
I do hope she has a bit of integrity and does the right thing here.

All the best mate.... got my fingers, toes and eyes crossed for it to find in your favour

Re: What Are the Chances?

kopenhagen5 — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 09:46:23 GMT

It's possible it was safe dropped and someone saw it thinking I'll have that.

I had a parcel safe dropped on monday. It was signed for registered post.

I don't blame Aus Post, I blame the lazy individuals that have probably stretched the truth to get the job.

Re: What Are the Chances?

clarry100 — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 10:08:25 GMT

Could not have been safe dropped as the address was a PO Box and the tracking shows delivered at the buyer's local PO.

So its possible it would not fit into the PO Box so they carded her and she picked it up inside over the counter, hence it shows delivered.

Re: What Are the Chances?

*tippy*toes* — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 10:27:31 GMT

Unless she's got one of those bigger PO boxes, the box wouldn't have fitted in a standard size box. She should have received a card. I suggested checking with her PO. I was ignored. I thought it possible that a card may have fallen out as the backs of some PO boxes are open. I'm sure though if that was the case, she would have received a second card, then if it still wasn't picked up, it should have been sent back to me.

I've been off work since July 2. The days where I have been away due to family illness I have checked my CCTV and nothing apart from one thing has been dropped at my door, so it hasn't been RTS and then nicked. The one that was left was a sign for parcel and the reason I checked was because the My Post app alerted me that the parcel had been delivered and safe dropped. Thankfully my friend was here feeding my animals so she grabbed it and put it out the back. There's been nothing since.

I believe she's trying it on because I opened an UPI on her. I'm waiting for the neg feedback. That will drop that account to below standard as it only has 5 feedback. I'm not worried, I had only been listing a handful of things on there as it was.

Re: What Are the Chances?

thecatspjs — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 12:01:40 GMT

@*tippy*toes* wrote:
Sold an item on June 24th. I had no watchers on other items and when the buyer hadn't paid after 2 days I sent an invoice. Buyer has low feedback so I thought maybe they were waiting for one. By the 28th, I'd heard nothing and there was no payment, so I opened an UPI. On day 3 of the UPI I sent a message asking if she planned on paying for the item and that if she's changed her mind, that's OK, but she needs to let me know. If she hadn't paid by the time the UPI was closed, she would get a black mark on her account and her buying privileges could be restricted. I heard nothing back.

5 minutes before I closed the dispute, she paid. It was a Saturday, so I posted first thing Monday, which was July 4th. As I always do, I uploaded the tracking number into the order details. Tracking showed delivered on July 8. The My Post app also indicated it had been delivered and by that stage, I had no outstanding undelivered tracking numbers. I had already ended all my listings on all 3 accounts a few days before due to having to go away for a sick family member, so was pleased that everything was showing as delivered.

You can imagine my surprise when I received notification of an INR dispute opened against me. I double checked the tracking number, yes, it shows delivered at her local PO. My first ever INR. In fact, my first ever dispute! I responded to the dispute by uploading the tracking number. In the comment box I cut and pasted the tracking details off the AP website, showing the item as being delivered on the 8th and I also added a message to the buyer explaining that tracking is showing as delivered, blah blah blah, polite, polite, polite and said I look forward to hearing back from them. Nothing. Just like when she bought the item. Nothing.

I sent eBay a message this morning asking how I can close the dispute as the buyer is not responding. They replied within a few minutes and said yes, the tracking is definitely showing as delivered and arrived before my handling time was even expired, let alone the delivery estimate. They said I have done everything correctly and will be covered by seller protection. I pointed out that PayPal has blocked my account, even though I had more than enough to cover the disputed amount, so I can't pay for purchases I've made and I can see that eBay has tried to take their fees and failed.

They said I could escalate the dispute tomorrow. As in, ask ebay to step in and help. I said that when that happens, eBay will instantly close the dispute in favour of the buyer and refund them for an item they have received. I went into the whole spiel about it. I asked how they would recoup the money from the buyer after refund, because I would be very angry if she got to keep the money and eBay refunded me out of their pocket. They basically promised it would close in my favour.

So, after a very long winded message, what are the chances of me asking eBay to step in and help and the dispute being found in my favour? I actually wonder if she's opened the dispute on the wrong seller because I can see by her feedback she has bought quite a bit from China. I know she has got the item. She has a PO box and the tracking says it was delivered to her local post office. I do believe she's trying one on because that account only has 5 feedback. Maybe she thinks a dispute will scare a new seller to refund.

Has anyone escalated an INR dispute when tracking has showed as being delivered and had the dispute closed in their favour? I just have a bad feeling if I escalate, this woman will get away with it and encourage her to try it on with other sellers.

You need to contact Paypal ASAP

eBay should not have any ability to "freeze" your entire Paypal account through a single dispute. The dispute may have triggered other flags that need to be sorted with Paypal directly. Dealing with eBay in this scenario IMO will bring nothing but grief.

IMO never ask eBay to step in, if it can be avoided, it is an action of last resort, if all else has failed.

If Paypal have restricted your access to the funds you hold in your Paypal account, above and beyond the transaction amount of the sale that happened on eBay, then you need to divert the focus from the buyer, and direct your energy to getting a response from Paypal - and personally I would request a discussion with a supervisor, not a frontline agent.

Re: What Are the Chances?

*tippy*toes* — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 13:00:17 GMT

I agree about the stepping in thing. From what I've seen here, it always ends badly, regardless of what spin eBay like to put on it. That's why i was reluctant and why I asked the question (albeit in a very long winded way!). I mostly wanted to know if anyone did have the dispute go in their favour in this situation.

The PayPal thing has got me stumped and yes you're right, I do need to ring them. I've never had a dispute of any kind opened against me, either through MBG or PayPal so wasn't 100% sure what happens there (only what I've read here). I always thought it was just the disputed amount that was frozen. I just hope I don't get penalised from eBay because they tried to auto take me fees and couldn't. In the past if there has been no funds in there the fees have come from the attached bank account.

Using the bank account for payment through PayPal has always gone straight through, yet on Sunday it said it would spawn an echeque. I've never had an echeque from using that payment method (although I know others do). Most of the time these days I leave money in PayPal for purchases, but sometimes it does get low so it takes whatever is left in PayPal and the rest from the bank account. Very strange!

Re: What Are the Chances?

bakeandfry — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 13:39:37 GMT

I wish you the best of luck Tippy.
I will be reading this thread with great interest.
I have a strange feeling that your going to see ebays mbg at its finest.
(By that i dont mean any penalty to you, but as ebay giving the buyer there money back no matter what seller (you) says)

Re: What Are the Chances?

*tippy*toes* — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 00:34:08 GMT

I think I'm just going to let it go. Despite what the CS person told me and despite what their policies state, we all know that the instant either party asks eBay to step in, it automatically closes in the buyers favour, regardless. I'm pretty sure they time out after a month so I'll just ride it out. Given the buyers habit of ignoring things, I'd be surprised if she'll be back. One of the CS reps said they sent her a message telling her how to close the dispute, due to the tracking showing as delivered, but she's ignored that too.

I still think it's either a malicious tactic because I opened an UPI on her, OR, she's opened the dispute on the wrong seller and thinks if she ignores it, it will go away.

Re: What Are the Chances?

*tippy*toes* — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 00:40:55 GMT

I left it too long to edit my above message. My PayPal seems to be working again, so there must have been a temporary glitch happening. The disputed amount is still being held, but it's now letting me pay for purchases.

Re: What Are the Chances?

esayaf — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 04:32:06 GMT

I never leave money in PayPal. I don't trust any entity that can just chose to withhold your money

Re: What Are the Chances?

*tippy*toes* — Sat, 13 Aug 2016 05:13:17 GMT

Finally 7 days after she opened the dispute, the buyer has responded to my many messages. Accused me of being unprofessional because I asked if she was trying to scam me! I'd said if she wants to scam sellers to check the tracking first because if the tracking shows as delivered, she will lose any disputes. I had also asked if she had accidentally opened a dispute against the wrong seller. That didn't go down well either.

She did as I asked and went to her post office who confirmed the item was there and had been collected, but they don't know by whom. She's now accusing me of sending the wrong item. How would she know? I replied to her message saying she needs to take it up with the post office as it's hardly my fault if they gave it to the wrong person. I fulfilled my obligation as a seller. I told her that eBay said if she escalates the case eBay will close it in my favour because the tracking shows as delivered. I also told her that eBay will remove any bad feedback she may feel compelled to leave (they didn't but I felt that might be the step she takes if they close it in my favour).

Hopefully given that she has mentioned it was at her post office, eBay will find in my favour if she escalates (not holding my breath though). If they want to refund her that's their call, but she ain't getting a cent out of me. Not my fault her post office can't do their job properly.

Her excuse for taking so long to reply was because she works full time. Funny how her feedback is increasing each day when she's bought as paid for stuff (a lot of Chinese leave it upon payment and some of them I know for a fact do because I have bought from the same sellers in the past). I'm currently driving over 1,000km a week and still found the time to reply to her dispute, so I can't accept she didn't have 10 minutes in the evening to follow it up. I told her if she chooses to open a dispute, it's her obligation to stay on top of it. Not leave sellers in the lurch for a week between messages.

Apparently the option to escalate will appear for her tomorrow, so it will be interesting to see what happens when she hits the button (which I can guarantee she will). She opened the dispute at 2.17pm, so I'm guessing any time after that it will appear. Watch this space! I have the help page open ready to hit the button to call eBay (or have them call me back), that's how much confidence I have in it closing in my favour.

Re: What Are the Chances?

davidc4430 — Sat, 13 Aug 2016 05:42:18 GMT

i believe apple have the next smart phone in planning that will have the new version of emoticons, 3D emoticons

there will be one thats a kiss, two lips will come out of the screen and 'kiss' you.

the ones i think most will want will be the 'raspberry' where the 2 lips blow a 'raspberry' at the recipient.

then the 'punch in the face, emoticon where a red boxing glove comes out ot the screen and well you get the idea.

would be handy with this buyer.

what other 3D emoticons can we think of?

Re: What Are the Chances?

imastawka — Sat, 13 Aug 2016 05:49:39 GMT

what other 3D emoticons can we think of?

Er, ummm, this forum is moderated, so I'm not biting.

Good luck Tippy. In a fair world she'd get her just desserts.

But this is ebay. And I know you'll give 'em ~~bluddy hell~~ a hard time

Re: What Are the Chances?

kopenhagen5 — Sat, 13 Aug 2016 07:03:26 GMT

There are now Simoji's. Simone Biles emoji's.

Thanks clarry, skipped my mind it was to a PO Box.

Re: What Are the Chances?

springyzone — Sat, 13 Aug 2016 08:38:05 GMT

I only trust coincidence so far.

I think this could well be quite a vindictive buyer, she hasn't made a mistake about what item it is or who she bought it from.

She may only have a low number rating but she may not be a newbie, because I suspect she knows the system.

How else to explain how she paid in the just last 5 minutes before her time ran out?

I'm betting she was rigid with fury then at having an UPI dispute opened so made you wait.

But not to the extent of not paying. Maybe she doesn't want her account shut down or her buying limited.

You said though you sold the item to her under a low feedback account, so she thinks you are a newbie.

BUT you answered her with:

I told her that eBay said if she escalates the case eBay will close it in my favour because the tracking shows as delivered. I also told her that eBay will remove any bad feedback she may feel compelled to leave (they didn't but I felt that might be the step she takes if they close it in my favour).

So she is learning you aren't so easy to hoodwink.

She may back out of taking it any further but then again, she has nothing to lose by escalating and she is the vindictive type.

Good luck, let us know how you get on.