topic Re: Chargebacks in Selling

Chargebacks

character_parties_aus — Mon, 21 Nov 2016 04:45:15 GMT

Hello

We have received a chargeback via paypal assuming that the buyer paid by credit card. The details of the chargeback are vague. All we know is that it is a merchandise chargeback for approx $50 for an item not as described or damaged in some way. Paypal does not cover us for seller protection in this instance. We have had no contact from the buyer at any point. The items were delivered by tracked post 3 weeks ago.

Paypal have said - send us a picture and other totally useless stuff like that so they can fight it. They dont really have any intention of that of course.

I would be interested to hear of any useful ways of fighting chargebacks. We dont actually know the nature of the complaint as there has been no contact with the buyer but I am struggling to see how some paper party bags get damaged in the post. However perhaps we did send the wrong item we dont actually know!

We have so far

- Lodged a report to ACORN and told the buyer we have reported the transaction to ACORN as there has been no contact from them. Whilst we are not perfect sellers if there is an issue we need to know to resolve it! We have no idea of what the issue is if any other than a merchandise chargeback.

- Submitted a copy of our returns policy including any disputes to paypal which the buyer is in breach of as they failed to inform us of any issues or submit any evidence to us of such - which leads me to suggest its fraud.

- 2 people can confirm what was sent as the packing process includes a 2 stage check to make sure goods sent are as ordered.

Its only $50 but its the principle. Any other ideas of fighting such fraud are welcome!

Re: Chargebacks

shepherdsrule — Mon, 21 Nov 2016 05:58:01 GMT

Paypal have said - send us a picture and other totally useless stuff like that so they can fight it. They dont really have any intention of that of course.

Youu can't possibly kknow paypal will not try to sort this on your behalf so give them a chance to, what have you got to lose?

If I were you I would get the buyer contact details and phone them, and ask them what the problem was.

Re: Chargebacks

jfmgray — Mon, 21 Nov 2016 07:09:43 GMT

I had 2 chargebacks a few weeks back from the same buyer. I contacted the buyer who would't (or couldn't) tell me the reason his bank had instigated the chargerback but confirmed the items had arrived. No tracking. Paypal were great and as soon as I lodged screenshots of the buyer's messages, they closed in my favour. Not only did they release my funds, they also credited my account $30 in case they took the matter further with the bank which would normally cost me a service fee of $15 each chargeback. If you are longstanding paypal account holder with a cleanish record, I find they will bend over backwards to support you. Well that has been my experience.

Re: Chargebacks

digital*ghost — Mon, 21 Nov 2016 07:25:01 GMT

@character_parties_aus wrote:

We have received a chargeback via paypal assuming that the buyer paid by credit card. The details of the chargeback are vague. All we know is that it is a merchandise chargeback for approx $50 for an item not as described or damaged in some way.

As far as I know, if the chargeback is for damaged or not as described, the bank will require the buyer to return the merchandise (just like PayPal would).

Hopefully, if the buyer is trying it on, this requirement will thwart their efforts.

Re: Chargebacks

lyndal1838 — Mon, 21 Nov 2016 07:31:08 GMT

You are right Digi....a bank chargeback requires the buyer to return the item with signature on delivery, full tracking and the signature to be returned to the sender who is then supposed to send it on to the bank to prove that it has been delivered.

it is a far more expensive option than an paypal dispute, especially now that paypal has the offer of return postage paid by them.

Re: Chargebacks

dcds2014dcds2014 — Mon, 21 Nov 2016 07:38:00 GMT

I recently had a chargeback filed and looking at the guys feedback it appeared he did it to every item he bought.

However paypal said send them screenshots of the order thru ebay and any other screenshots to verify the customer made the order. I thought well thats it as i had no tracked delivery, however to my surprise the case was closed in my favour as I had the guys address and an item ordered thru paypal/ebay by someone on his account so dont give em up for dead yet

Re: Chargebacks

clarry100 — Mon, 21 Nov 2016 23:00:38 GMT

We had a chargeback for a small item valued at under $10 a couple of years ago now. No tracking on the delivery.

So I called paypal about it.

They took a look at my clean track record and closed the case "NO FAULT". Even tho I had no tracking.

They said this meant that the buyer still received their refund and got to keep the item but the money came from PayPal not from me.

By the way if you choose to fight the case they will automatically apply a $15 fee. Then if you lose you will be slugged the fee as well.

If you win they will rescind the fee. Generally you need to be able to show tracking that shows delivery to the buyers posctode and/or suburb or location. But occsaionally they will allow you a win without tracking. So don't give up... call them before you take up the fight tho.

Re: Chargebacks

character_parties_aus — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 03:32:35 GMT

Thanks for all your replies.

We have had chargebacks previously or claims although not for several years and due to our good standing paypal has simply refunded us. As this was a paypal credit card payment we are not covered for seller protection on a merchandise chargeback. I am actually more interested in pusueing the nature of the issue the unresponsive seller has and ensuring that if there is an issue we remedy and if as I suspect there is no issue they do not do us over. The buyer is a new ebayer ( 4 feedback) . I find it suspicious that someone simply raises a chargeback with no communication with the seller.

The buyer is in clear breach of our advertised returns policy which was clearly displayed so we will be fighting the chargeback on the basis that our returns policy has not been followed. We have also reported to ACORN. We have told the buyer and paypal this. I will let you know what happens! Worst case I have their address and will pursue them through the small claims court on point of principle.

Re: Chargebacks

lyndal1838 — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 04:37:08 GMT

I must be pretty dumb but why are you not covered for a merchandise chargeback for a credit card funded paypal payment?

Re: Chargebacks

clarry100 — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 06:43:07 GMT

@lyndal1838 wrote:
I must be pretty dumb but why are you not covered for a merchandise chargeback for a credit card funded paypal payment?

Hmmm yes me too.

You, as the seller, are unable to tell if the buyer has funded the purchase thru PayPal with an attached credit/debit card or by direct debit from a linked bank account. They have just paid you via paypal. And as such I would have thought that the usual seller protection is in place.

Please educate us some more here.

Re: Chargebacks

character_parties_aus — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 07:12:36 GMT

I've got no idea why I am not covered. Thats what I was told when I called paypal ( I recorded the call).

Paypal does not cover sellers for merchandise chargebacks. The reason would be quite obvious really - you could send anything you like get loads of chargebacks and paypal would have to pay for them.

Re: Chargebacks

lyndal1838 — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 07:31:24 GMT

I may be very wrong but I think the paypal rep was also very, very wrong.

If it is correct I think a lot of sellers are going to be very surprised.

Re: Chargebacks

digital*ghost — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 07:39:48 GMT

@lyndal1838 wrote:
I may be very wrong but I think the paypal rep was also very, very wrong.
If it is correct I think a lot of sellers are going to be very surprised.

Not me...

PayPal don't provide Seller Protection on any form of 'Not As Described' case, which makes sense if you think about it - as in, either the case is resolved in the seller's favour and the item was deemed as described (in which case the buyer isn't due their money back), or the case is resolved in the buyer's favour and the item is deemed not as described, (in which case the seller is obliged to refund, generally on return of the goods).

Seller Protection applies when the buyer receives a refund but not from the seller, so while PayPal will pay out of their own pocket for discretionary payments (in cases like INR), or if the seller qualifies for SP in cases like unauthorised use, they're (usually) not quite generous enough to offer to pay for not as described items.

Re: Chargebacks

lyndal1838 — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 07:55:17 GMT

Thanks Digi, as usual you make sense.

But what happens if the item was broken...obviously not as described but hardly the seller's fault.

It looks to me as though the OP's buyer knows the ropes and was not going to take a chance on a paypal claim being rejected so goes with the option where the seller cannot defend the claim.

Re: Chargebacks

digital*ghost — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 08:17:52 GMT

@lyndal1838 wrote:
Thanks Digi, as usual you make sense.
But what happens if the item was broken...obviously not as described but hardly the seller's fault.

Well, the same could be said for INR, when the seller has proof of post but not delivery, or proof of delivery even if the buyer hasn't received the item - i.e. the fault often lies with the delivery service, but in many cases, at least one party, who isn't at fault, is out of pocket.

Breakages tends to be one of the greyer areas with disputes, especially for online purchases. I know eBay's MBG doesn't cover breakages during transit, but the practical reality is that in most cases, unless the buyer is willing to work with the seller and take the item + packaging to Aus Post (if they were used), the responsibility falls to the seller, as a lot of buyers won't know or care when or how the damage occured, just that it did and their item is 'not as described' on receipt.

I just wish the systems in place (banks, PayPal, eBay) didn't effectively treat situations like this with the following - we can't know if the buyer is telling the truth, hence we'll assume they are, and we can't know if the seller is telling the truth, hence we'll assume they're not. (At least, that's how it generally seems to me).

Re: Chargebacks

character_parties_aus — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 09:35:39 GMT

To provide clarity we sent 3 packs of high end ( premium) party bags. Chance of breakage is pretty much zero - chance of wrong item is also pretty much zero as there is a 2 stage check process in place We dont know if they are broken and we dont know if they are not as described. Hence we have enacted our return policy as the buyer is in breach of the return policy,

Re: Chargebacks

sparrow2207 — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 04:31:09 GMT

Have you considered that the items were damaged by rain or mishandling in transit???

As the buyer has not informed you of the problem you immediately assume fraud. You have also stated they are new with only 4 feedback.

Lots of banks cover you for receiving damaged items or items breaking within a certain period of time after purchase. I know mine does.

The purchaser may not have a PP account and paid using a credit card without logging in to PayPal. If this is the case they would claim through the CC provider and not PP.

Re: Chargebacks

shepherdsrule — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 13:18:12 GMT

Pretty sure the OP [seller] would know if the buyer had paid directly by CC, the OP would have to have a merchant id and cc facility, and would be very easy to track the transaction.

Re: Chargebacks

*tippy*toes* — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 14:38:31 GMT

No, the seller doesn't need merchant CC facilities. If a buyer pays as a guest through PayPal they can only pay with a credit card. The only inkling a seller might have is a difference in the email they get from PayPal. When someone pays via PayPal, by logging in, the email subject will be something like:

Item Number 12345678 - Notification of an Instant Payment Received from <buyers ID> (<buyers email address>).

If they've paid as a guest it comes through as something like "You've received new funds!"

Re: Chargebacks

englishrosegardens — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 22:24:20 GMT

@*tippy*toes* wrote:
No, the seller doesn't need merchant CC facilities. If a buyer pays as a guest through PayPal they can only pay with a credit card. The only inkling a seller might have is a difference in the email they get from PayPal. When someone pays via PayPal, by logging in, the email subject will be something like:

Item Number 12345678 - Notification of an Instant Payment Received from <buyers ID> (<buyers email address>).

If they've paid as a guest it comes through as something like "You've received new funds!"

You get that type of email if they use the cart, which you'd probably never see if you only do auctions (not sure about that).