topic Re: Click and send not delivered in Selling

Click and send not delivered

lovemyford10 — Tue, 10 Jul 2012 06:15:09 GMT

I purchased something last week from same state I paid straight away seller posted following day ,2 days later I had an email from Aust Post telling me the item had been delivered ,might have been delivered but not to my dam house .Emailed the seller straight away to let him know what had happened he got on the Aust Post they gave him the number to quote he gave it to me as he said he had authorised them to keep me in the loop .

Well I am totally sick of sitting on the phone at least 20 minutes each time .Still no item to late anyway now if it turns up brought one elswhere .

I have been to the local PO plus mail centre nobody knows where item has gone ,

I was told to check the neighbours to see if it had been left at there house I did this but that is not my job it is nowhere .Then the mail centre told me to check other houses with similar number what a darn joke 300 house in my Rd.

Also told to check my power box to see if it had been left inside it ,

Very hard to explain to Aust Post I was home waiting for the item and it was not delivered to my addy at all .

So I am still waiting not the sellers fault all Aust Post .

So just wondering how this will finish any clues .

Re: Click and send not delivered

*kazumi* — Tue, 10 Jul 2012 08:15:45 GMT

I think the sender (seller) needs to lodge claim with AP. I am not sure how it works nowadays with the click&send. Please, keep us posted as to what happens.

In the past people used to have to be quite insistent to be given the "missing article" claim form.

Re: Click and send not delivered

phorum_junkie* — Tue, 10 Jul 2012 09:09:48 GMT

Make an official complaint to AP.

Re: Click and send not delivered

tall_bearded — Tue, 10 Jul 2012 19:43:40 GMT

This is where stand.

The seller has proof the item was sent, and as such, you have no right of recovery against the seller.

The Australia Post data base shows the item as delivered. Therefore should the seller lodge a discretionary claim with Aust Post it will be rejected on that basis that, as the item was sent by regular post it was subject to being safe dropped, and as the item is recorded as delivered, the most likely reason why you didn’t take possession was because it was stolen AFTER it was delivered.

Therefore these are your options.

If you paid by PayPal lodge and ‘Item Not Received’ claim in the hope that they will make a discretionary payment.

If PayPal refuse to make a discretionary payment then you can lodge a complaint with the Postal Ombudsman, but be prepared to be disappointed because Aust Post will respond with “it went missing after it was delivered, and the onus will on you to prove it was never delivered.

Finally, for what it’s worth, in the future you may want to consider having items delivered using a receipted delivery service (registered post) or have a lockable safe drop box installed. If you do either of these two, not only are the chances of you not receiving your item reduce significantly, but also, if it is not received, AP won’t have a leg to stand on if they try to reject the claim on the basis it went missing after it was delivered.

Re: Click and send not delivered

lovemyford10 — Wed, 11 Jul 2012 05:49:27 GMT

So what you are saying is Click and send covers a seller but not the buyer ,

I was actually home when the postman went past nothing was left .Earlier I had been out there was nothing left there is no place to drop safe my front door is in full view of the street .

I have now lodged a dispute so will see how the seller reacts .In over 200 buys and over 3000 sales I have only left 4 negs ,it is not something I like doing at all .

But I paid for an item and did not recieve it .

I know if it was the other way around I would be refunding or sending another item .

I am not going to install a safe drop box .

And I will take this further even to the ombudsman Aust Post are in a lot of cases not doing there job ..

Re: Click and send not delivered

koalablue12 — Wed, 11 Jul 2012 08:37:34 GMT

From what I understand, paypal does protect the seller, they only need proof of postage...my argument, all along actually, has been you should need proof of delivery. What confuses me is....the seller is protected, but what does the buyer do? How do they lodge a calim with AP, when the actual contract is between AP and the sender 'seller'? Me thinks it is just another of those annoying loopholes that the 'gods that rule' hope we will all get fed up with, and give up on! IMO and as a seller, I would refund the buyer and fight it out with AP, but that is just me for the sake of reputation, legally - WTHK

Re: Click and send not delivered

digital*ghost — Wed, 11 Jul 2012 09:20:25 GMT

From what I understand, paypal does protect the seller, they only need proof of postage...my argument, all along actually, has been you should need proof of delivery.

PayPal require proof of delivery in countries where the seller is legally responsible for items until delivered to the buyer, so I suspect that for as long as the laws are different in Oz, the requirement will be for proof of shipping only.

They (PP) used to be a bit more lenient in cases where proof of shipping could be established but the buyer had not received the parcel (a relatively rare occurrence pre-C&S), providing discretionary payments to the buyer without taking it from the seller. They changed this in January once C&S was firmly established (methinks because the probability where shipping could be established yet the buyer had not received their parcel increased somewhat).

The "what if..." scenario has always bothered me in this circumstance, particularly once it became evident that Australia Post were reluctant (read: primarily refusing) to provide compensation for lost parcels unless registered was used (funny how the postal service effectively claims "no responsibility for lost parcels unless registered is selected" 😐 << that face is for AP).

In circumstances like this, someone is going to be out of pocket. AP and PayPal don't want it to be them, legally it doesn't have to be the seller, so in a "by the book" transaction it will be the buyer who wears the loss unless they're dealing with a seller who is prepared to wear it instead - that's one reason why the 'no responsibility' TOS, where stated, shouldn't be so easily dismissed by buyers.

Re: Click and send not delivered

puppingtons — Sun, 15 Jul 2012 00:54:40 GMT

I am in the same situation here but from a sellers point of view.

I posted my package (using click and send tracking plus signature) and the Australia Post website status is saying parcel delivered and gives a name but my customer doesnt know who the person is that signed for it and hasnt received the parcel.

I have been forced into refunding for this before when i didnt use the signature option but really dont want to now as i will be out of pocket (the postage alone is $7.40) and i will soon go out of business if this happens a lot.

I have written to Australia Post asking for advice and kept my customer informed but what else can i do.

Its tough being a seller when this happens as well as being the buyer.

Re: Click and send not delivered

extra-keen — Sun, 15 Jul 2012 01:48:01 GMT

Mucky pups, if you lodged the item over the counter and collected the scanned lodgement docket, you will be covered by paypal for the loss. If you have done this, you have completed your part of the contract, ie, you have proven that you posted the item.

Re: Click and send not delivered

puppingtons — Sun, 15 Jul 2012 04:19:50 GMT

Thanks for your reply Colleenk4324

I know i have done everything 100% correctly but still feel bad when a customer complains that they havent received there goods.

I see you have been selling a while do you get much trouble with this ? if so what do you do ?

Re: Click and send not delivered

australiapoststore — Mon, 16 Jul 2012 03:39:54 GMT

Hi Mucky Pups,

Have you lodged an investigation with us to find out who signed for the parcel and where?

Alice

Re: Click and send not delivered

puppingtons — Mon, 16 Jul 2012 09:20:50 GMT

Hi Alice

yes i have and i must say the person i have been emailing has been replying very quickly. I understand things like this happen but my customer seems to think its totally my fault and is demanding a full refund.

Can you let me know what the normal out come is of this kind of situation where the package has been delivered but the wrong person has signed for it and i guess stolen it.

Angie

Re: Click and send not delivered

lane-ends — Mon, 16 Jul 2012 11:15:18 GMT

There is no right or wrong person to sign for it. The delivery is to that address AP does not gurantee that is not received by someone who happens to burgularing the house at the time. or even a disgruntled family member whos playing a mean trick

The idea of the signiture is so that a person at that address has double checked that it has not gone to the wrong house, or left in an unsafe position.

person to person sig delivery is a different service.

Re: Click and send not delivered

puppingtons — Mon, 16 Jul 2012 12:40:49 GMT

I am waiting to hear what Pay Pal make of all this as my customer is demanding a full refund. I have offered to split the difference as i feel bad for her but she rather rudely declined.

I sent the parcel click and send with tracking and signature but didnt lodge it at the post office, it is however listed on the Australia Post tracking system so hopefully that will be enough. What do you think Pay Pal will do ?

Re: Click and send not delivered

skippypom — Mon, 16 Jul 2012 12:46:34 GMT

I would be refunding in full and claiming back from AP. Is it worth the neg?

Re: Click and send not delivered

davewil1964 — Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:41:00 GMT

Paypal will find in your favour as you have sent it by an approved method. They will probably not refund the buyer.

Keep on at AP, though. They may find it.

I trade here for money, not dots. I certainly wouldn't refund when I had done the right thing just to avoid a negative.

Re: Click and send not delivered

puppingtons — Mon, 16 Jul 2012 22:30:07 GMT

Thanks for your replys,

I have thought about refunding to save the neg and have done that before on smaller amounts but at the end of the day i am trading in money not dots as well lol

I offered to split the difference as a gesture of good will but that wasnt good enough so i am gonna stick to my guns in the hope that ebay will get rid of the neg when it comes.

I have told my customer its up to pay pal now and i will do whatever they think is right and also if i get a refund from Aus Post they can have that as well i dont see what else i can do.

Thank god i dont get many of these or i would consider stopping doing ebay.

Re: Click and send not delivered

lovemyford10 — Mon, 16 Jul 2012 22:41:51 GMT

I dont think Aust Post knows what it is doing half the time ,they will no longer tell me what is happening I have spoken to the contracter who delivers to me and he has not safe dropped anything to me ,I know him well he does not leave anything safe dropped I always joke that if I am not home or do not hear him at the door I have to run over to PO .But the seller has confused me even more now to the point I have no idea what is going on as I have raised a disput this is one of his replies ..

Hi I have rang Austalia Post and they have assured me that you can ring up to find out the progress of the case. They are waiting to hear back from the delivery centre and will get back to me as soon as they can. They are just advising me that the item was probably safe dropped and might have been stolen, etc. I have told them that I left specific delivery instructions to not do so when there is no one at home. Will just have to wait and see what they say. Also I have updated the tracking number for you but I have entered Australia Post eParcel instead of Parcel Post which was what I used.

And even though he says that I can ring to find out what is going on I cannot get told what is happened all I know is I am out of pocket and this is ridiculous i dont leave negs but this I think I will be also wish we could leave negs for Aust Post at times .

Re: Click and send not delivered

col52 — Tue, 17 Jul 2012 00:08:54 GMT

Before I say anything, I am not accusing anyone here of being a part of the reasoning behind Paypals decisions.

Now, I think Paypal have become fed up with the amount of scam claims going through, because of this they "changed things" which, unfortunately, affects those genuine claims.

The user agreement states:

Schedule 2. PayPal Buyer Protection Policy

1. What is the PayPal Buyer Protection Policy?

1.1. The PayPal Buyer Protection Policy applies to all payments effected using our Services.

1.2. If you are an eligible buyer, the PayPal Buyer Protection Policy is our policy to help you recover payments made in respect of certain items purchased where items are:

deemed Item Not Received; ordelivered but are Significantly Not As Described.

1.3. If your purchase meets the requirements for the PayPal Buyer Protection Policy we will attempt to recover your payment from the seller, ie to attempt to reverse the transaction.

1.4. If you have received any cash back, rebate, credit or other promotional incentive from us or any third party for a purchase eligible for the PayPal Buyer Protection Policy, you may only recover the amount of your payments less the value of the cash back, rebate, credit or other promotional incentive you received.

1.5. Where we are unable to recover the whole or any part of your payment from the seller we may in our absolute and sole discretion, decide to make an ex gratia payment. Please note payment by us under the PayPal Buyer Protection Policy is at our absolute and sole discretion. You have no automatic entitlement to receive any payments. The PayPal Buyer Protection Policy does not indemnify you for loss which may incur and it is not a contract of insurance.

1.6. If we determine a claim in your favour, we will re-imburse you the full purchase price of the item and original postage costs only. We will not reimburse you for the postage costs you incur to return an item subject to a Significantly Not As Described claim to the seller or another party we reasonably specify. If the seller presents evidence for an Item Not Received claim that they shipped the goods to your address, we may find in favour of the seller even if you did not receive the goods.

https://cms.paypal.com/au/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full&fli=true&locale.x=en_AU

They seem to be taking this stance more and more.

Methods of proof of posting have changed too.

They now accept proof of posting by regular mail, not just via registered, etc.,

I think this is leading up to something like "get posted by registered or you have no comeback".

As has been said, it's not the seller who loses packages (once handed over to AP, with proof of posting. It is AP who is to blame.

At the risk of upsetting, I don't think it's right to neg or neut a seller in circumstances where proof of posting has been shown.

Re: Click and send not delivered

lovemyford10 — Tue, 17 Jul 2012 05:39:09 GMT

Did you read the last sentance that I have underlined how can he change which postal service from standard which he said he used at first then it was click and send now he has added somthing about eparcel now nothing is making sense but I am under the impression if you post something by standard reg or whatever you cannot change especially if there is a dispute going on . .

I have had so many different stories from the seller it is hard to know what has happened he keeps telling me that Aust Post will update me that he has cleared it but he hasnt considering I have had close to 1,000 buys and close to 4000 sales this is the first time I have ever had a parcel not arrive to me ..

And no more than 5 not arrive to buyer and I will add everyone that has not arrived have all been to 0 bidders work that one out .