topic Re: paypal chargeback after leaving +ve feedback? in Selling

paypal chargeback after leaving +ve feedback?

bennyniccolo — Fri, 13 Jul 2012 23:13:41 GMT

Hi, I have just received a Paypal 'Temporary Hold Pending Investigation' on another ID. I rarely get these and am not sure what to do. The item was a character t shirt sent to USA, just regular mail ($22 shirt + postage all up). Buyer has left positive feedback about 1.5 weeks after I sent it.

Today I have received a Paypal email as buyer has said her credit card use was unauthorised. I checked her feedback and she has bought similar items from a UK seller just days prior, so I just emailed that seller. That seller has also received positive feedback, and has said she has had a dispute opened today too, but is yet to get back to me on the details of if it is the same buyer...

Where do we stand if the same thing has happened to both of us, and why the positive feedback left if it is someone using unauthorised credit card? Obviously they have the buyer's Paypal AND ebay details then???

Thanks so much

Re: paypal chargeback after leaving +ve feedback?

freightcar2009 — Fri, 13 Jul 2012 23:20:04 GMT

I would suggest you report their account as hijacked.

It would seem someone has managed to find out details of all their account.... They probably have been caught by a Nigerian scammer... or someone similar.

Give all the information you have to eBay, and trust the system set in place as it is in general very good and usually gets the right advice.

There will prolly be others with a lot more and better advice then this but its a start.

Re: paypal chargeback after leaving +ve feedback?

digital*ghost — Sat, 14 Jul 2012 04:58:55 GMT

If you have valid proof of shipping (official documentation from Australia Post etc that shows the buyer's delivery address as shown on the payment notification), you should qualify for Seller Protection. You will need to upload the documentation to the PayPal dispute.

If you don't have that documentation, you will pretty much lose this case - and the funds.

Positive feedback indicates that a person received the goods you sent, unfortunately it doesn't prove that the person who owns the card that was used to purchase the goods actually authorised the payment for them, and you will likely never know if the buyer is actually pulling an admittedly common scam, or someone's card was actually used fraudulently. Either way, it will be very difficult to retain the payment if you don't have something that can give you Seller Protection. PayPal will also pass on a $15 bank fee (charged by the bank) if you fight the chargeback and lose, meaning you're out the full payment + $15.

Re: paypal chargeback after leaving +ve feedback?

phorum_junkie* — Sat, 14 Jul 2012 13:57:59 GMT

There is no question that the buyer received the goods so feedback is irelevent.

When you sell you have to decide if you are going to post by a method that qualifies for Paypal seller protection or you are going to refund if a bank chargeback is done for fraudulent card use.

As you have no proof of posting that qualifies for Paypal seller protection you would be better to just tell them you agree to the chargeback, if you try and fight it you will lose and Paypal will charge you an extra $15.

Re: paypal chargeback after leaving +ve feedback?

colic2bullsgirlore — Sat, 14 Jul 2012 15:51:18 GMT

OP Did you know that you can track a CN22 customs declaration (the little green form that asks the weight and what is in the package) on the USPS site. ??

OP Did you know that with a stat dec stating that you sent the package to the buyers address, a postal receipt and the correlating CN22 information as long as the buyer and the cardholder are the same person you will probably win the chargeback??

Millions of paypal transactions occur everyday.... off ebay...... paypal has the same duty of care to protect those users from chargebacks.

Those sellers can never qualify for ebay seller protection yet they win chargeback claims.

OP follow the links to the Paypal chargeback guide

Not qualifying for ebay seller protection does certainly not mean you will automatically lose a chargeback claim.

..... ask the helpers for a link to the information they quote????

here is mine to my information

https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=security/chargeback_guide

Re: paypal chargeback after leaving +ve feedback?

colic2bullsgirlore — Sat, 14 Jul 2012 16:06:19 GMT

https://www.paypal.com/au/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/Marketing/securitycenter/sell/ChargebackFAQ

I wonder why paypal chargeback guide suggests that sellers use feedback or correspondence with the buyer yet some of the advice on this thread ignores and refutes that advice???

What information can a seller provide to increase the chances of winning a chargeback dispute?

The following types of information can increase the chances of a chargeback dispute being ruled in favor of the seller:

Proof of delivery, such as online tracking numbers.

Copies of the original item description or auction description, including any photos.

Proof that the buyer was already refunded.

Proof that the buyer was provided with a replacement product.

Correspondence with the buyer or feedback from the buyer.

Any agreements signed or accepted by the buyer at time of purchase.

Any return policy that was communicated to the buyer.

Re: paypal chargeback after leaving +ve feedback?

colic2bullsgirlore — Sat, 14 Jul 2012 16:16:30 GMT

OP also make sure you stay in contact with the other seller.

If you can find more affected sellers that also sent items to the same buyer your case may be stronger.

Any emails stating that the card use was unauthorized that came from the buyer can help you as well dependant upon source, and address especially if they are the cardholder.

You should report the ebay and paypal accounts as hijacked

It may be easier to defend an unauthorized use chargeback with a more secure postal mode or one that qualifies for the SPP but that certainly does not make it impossible to defend a chargeback with less than the SPP requires

Re: paypal chargeback after leaving +ve feedback?

digital*ghost — Sat, 14 Jul 2012 16:31:13 GMT

I wonder why paypal chargeback guide suggests that sellers use feedback or correspondence with the buyer yet some of the advice on this thread ignores and refutes that advice???

Because there are two different types of chargebacks. One is for an item not received - correspondence and/or feedback from the buyer that indicates receipt of an item would veto the claim and help a seller win a case.

When it's an unauthorised use claim like this, there is no dispute about whether an item was received or not so it's not the issue and positive feedback will do little to nothing to prove that the person who left it was authorised to use the card that funded the purchase.

Re: paypal chargeback after leaving +ve feedback?

viewmont1071 — Sat, 14 Jul 2012 17:10:37 GMT

When it is an unauthorized use chargeback if the cardholders name and address coincides with the name and address that the seller sent the item too

............. how relevant then is who the item was received by and whether it was received as far as unauthorized use is concerned????

How relevant is it if the ebay account that supplied positve feedback is the same Name and address as the cardholder and that account has not been reported as hijacked???

I think you assume too much digital....links.... I like links.....word of mouth??.... a little hard to trust!!

Re: paypal chargeback after leaving +ve feedback?

viewmont1071 — Sat, 14 Jul 2012 17:21:14 GMT

cardholders name Joe Bloggs

13 nowhereseville street

Nowhere

Joe raises a chargeback for unauthorized card use.

Muggins the seller is able to prove that a package was delivered to

Joe Bloggs

13 nowhereseville street

Nowhere

How relevant is delivery detail to an unauthorised use chargeback???

Re: paypal chargeback after leaving +ve feedback?

digital*ghost — Sat, 14 Jul 2012 17:58:04 GMT

The delivery address being the same as the cardholder's isn't even considered enough proof for a seller to win an unauthorised use claim. If a family member uses someone else's account and card, and doesn't bother to change the delivery name, it still doesn't mean that the card was authorised to be used and feedback still won't prove that it was - the eBay account won't be reported as highjacked because there's no benefit in doing so for the account holder in that particular circumstance.

The circumstantial evidence might be damning, but it still does little to help a seller's case. I'm not saying feedback etc is not relevant to me, but getting indignant about circumstantial evidence not being able to prove something doesn't help anyone.

Re: paypal chargeback after leaving +ve feedback?

viewmont1071 — Sat, 14 Jul 2012 18:02:30 GMT

The delivery address being the same as the cardholder's isn't even considered enough proof for a seller to win an unauthorised use claim. If a family member uses someone else's account and card, and doesn't bother to change the delivery name, it still doesn't mean that the card was authorised to be used and feedback still won't prove that it was - the eBay account won't be reported as highjacked because there's no benefit in doing so for the account holder in that particular circumstance.

The circumstantial evidence might be damning, but it still does little to help a seller's case. I'm not saying feedback etc is not relevant to me, but getting indignant about circumstantial evidence not being able to prove something doesn't help anyone.

link??? or hearsay??? no link ....no belief

Re: paypal chargeback after leaving +ve feedback?

digital*ghost — Sat, 14 Jul 2012 18:05:47 GMT

We'll call it hearsay and end it there, ok. 🙂

Re: paypal chargeback after leaving +ve feedback?

viewmont1071 — Sat, 14 Jul 2012 18:07:45 GMT

http://www.ehow.com/how_8402729_appeal-chargeback.html

Re: paypal chargeback after leaving +ve feedback?

viewmont1071 — Sat, 14 Jul 2012 18:31:43 GMT

BTW being sure of your advice I believe does not illustrate indignanace, however offering advice without substantiation will lead those that are not easily led to disagree or to disbelief 🙂 IMO 😐

Re: paypal chargeback after leaving +ve feedback?

digital*ghost — Sun, 15 Jul 2012 04:20:03 GMT

BTW being sure of your advice I believe does not illustrate indignanace, however offering advice without substantiation will lead those that are not easily led to disagree or to disbelief 🙂 IMO 😐

I don't disagree with that, but you're clouding the issue - the question was why members were advising that receiving feedback will not help a seller win a dispute where an unauthorised use claim has been initiated. Receiving feedback does not prove a cardholder authorised a payment, it's as simple as that.

The seller is never given the cardholder's details, not even the name let alone the address, in a PayPal transaction, so when a chargeback is initiated due to unathorised use, perhaps you can tell me who looks at the evidence and how would feedback help show that the cardholder authorised the payment? The address would be the pertinent evidence, but the seller only ever has the eBay account holder's details and delivery address, which may or may not belong to the cardholder. Does anyone check or verify the cardholder's details and the delivery address are identical? And if they do, why would such a chargeback even be entertained if it was enough proof that the purchase was authorised? (Legitimate questions).

You're also forgetting that unauthorised use chargebacks aren't always initiated by the cardholder. They're also initiated by the bank when the cardholder defaults on repayments etc. In that circumstance, matching delivery/cardholder details and feedback will again do nothing. The bank is the one claiming the cardholder themselves was unauthorised to use the card.

Re: paypal chargeback after leaving +ve feedback?

fishing_4_tupperware — Sun, 15 Jul 2012 07:29:20 GMT

Digital is completely correct, some of the so called experts around here have no clue.

A chargeback is through the buyers bank account claiming unauthorised use of the card. It has nothing at all to do with whether the item was received or not. Sadly this is a growing trend and people need to be prepared as it will happen to you and a tracking number does not prove the payment was authorised.

Re: paypal chargeback after leaving +ve feedback?

viewmont1071 — Sun, 15 Jul 2012 15:25:56 GMT

I don't disagree with that, but you're clouding the issue - the question was why members were advising that receiving feedback will not help a seller win a dispute where an unauthorised use claim has been initiated. Receiving feedback does not prove a cardholder authorised a payment, it's as simple as that.

The seller is never given the cardholder's details, not even the name let alone the address, in a PayPal transaction, so when a chargeback is initiated due to unathorised use, perhaps you can tell me who looks at the evidence and how would feedback help show that the cardholder authorised the payment? The address would be the pertinent evidence, but the seller only ever has the eBay account holder's details and delivery address, which may or may not belong to the cardholder. Does anyone check or verify the cardholder's details and the delivery address are identical? And if they do, why would such a chargeback even be entertained if it was enough proof that the purchase was authorised? (Legitimate questions).

You're also forgetting that unauthorised use chargebacks aren't always initiated by the cardholder. They're also initiated by the bank when the cardholder defaults on repayments etc. In that circumstance, matching delivery/cardholder details and feedback will again do nothing. The bank is the one claiming the cardholder themselves was unauthorised to use the card.

Um digital have a good look at a paypal item paid notification or actually read the information that paypal supplies on your sales summary

........ sellers are given the credit card holders name.

It often varies from the buyers name.When my wife buys using paypal on her ebay account my name appears on the paypal account summary as the cardholder and her name appears as the buyer....go figure

Anybody that thinks that you do not need prove that the cardholder used the card to successfully defend an unauthorized card use chargeback for a purchase in any situation other than maxing out their credit limit has rocks in their head.l

Delivery proven to the cardholder proves ownership whether the cardholder likes it or not.

If the credit card company has initiated the chargeback because the card is maxxed out then the chargeback is pretty well undefendable...... however the buyer is still liable

Did you not read paypals chargeback guide regarding who will investigate??? I quote

"We will help you build a powerful case" paypal will do the investigation

...or at the very least they can explain to the financial ombudsman why they didnt.

Re: paypal chargeback after leaving +ve feedback?

viewmont1071 — Sun, 15 Jul 2012 15:28:49 GMT

Digital is completely correct, some of the so called experts around here have no clue.

A chargeback is through the buyers bank account claiming unauthorised use of the card. It has nothing at all to do with whether the item was received or not. Sadly this is a growing trend and people need to be prepared as it will happen to you and a tracking number does not prove the payment was authorised.

:^O

Re: paypal chargeback after leaving +ve feedback?

viewmont1071 — Sun, 15 Jul 2012 15:39:50 GMT

Why would an unauthorized use chargeback be entertained???

are you kidding me?

Because the numpty card holder was in for a bit of friendly fraud after havinga b it of a google and a readabout and they intiiated it knowing that many advise that an unauthorized use chargeback is hard for a seller to defend. ... so they had a crack at it anyways

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fraud

Friendly fraud, also known as friendly fraud chargeback, is a credit card industry term used to describe a consumer who makes an Internet purchase with his/her own credit card and then issues a chargeback through his/her card provider after receiving the goods or services.

When a chargeback occurs, the merchant will always be responsible, regardless of what they did to verify the transaction.

The challenge with friendly fraud is that there is no way to verify the authenticity of the transaction, which is in fact legitimate, because the consumer is the one that is not legitimate.