topic Re: Scam - Return shipping label tampered. in Selling

Scam - Return shipping label tampered.

auditech_online — Mon, 08 Oct 2018 11:46:06 GMT

Can anyone share some experience in my situation.

Basically the buyer returned an empty box to a tampered address and eBay has decided to full refund the buyer.

The return shipping label was provided by eBay and a signature was required as the item is over $1000.

The local post office helped us find the recipient through the siginatory information and the staff provided a statement proving that the signature is from someone else.

We made contact with the parcel recipient and luckily they kept the original packaging and they are happy to be our witness.

We uploaded all evidence immediately and requested eBay to hold the refund and investigate.

eBay refunded the buyer in full because the "the buyer provided valid proof that the return was delivered." eBay insisted its the correct return address being used in their eParcel system as well as AusPost's.

I had a closer look at the shipping label again and realized the address was tampered.

eBay ignored all of our solid evidence and only looked at their own system. Outrageous!

Are we alone?

Thanks in advance.

Re: Scam - Return shipping label tampered.

k1ooo-slr-sales — Mon, 08 Oct 2018 12:15:11 GMT

I think this type of fraud will increase in future.

You should consider making a report to ACORN. Submit copies of everything, eBay messages, emails and case details. Even if they can’t act on this instance of fraud they may end up with reports that show a pattern of fraud from that buyer if other sellers have a similar experience to you.

Check the buyer’s feedback and see if any sellers have made feedback comments about the buyer behaviour (it may be pattern behaviour).

https://www.acorn.gov.au/

Please do come back and keep us up to date with this case. Your posts may help other sellers handle this type of fraud.

Re: Scam - Return shipping label tampered.

hoodiejs — Mon, 08 Oct 2018 13:44:12 GMT

This is terrible.. I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this.

When you say the buyer has tampered the label, do you mean they've basically put another address on top of the return label eBay provided?

Re: Scam - Return shipping label tampered.

springyzone — Mon, 08 Oct 2018 21:18:13 GMT

From what I have been reading on these boards, yes, I would say that there seem to be a few scammers around who try to defraud people with altered labels, false tracking numbers, empty boxes etc-I wouldn't say it is common but it does seem to happen occasionally & usually with higher priced items.

I'd do exactly what k1000 sales said but I would also be ringing ebay and asking to speak to someone a bit higher up the totem pole. Be polite but firm and make sure they know you'll be going to the police about this as you have evidence and signed statements from Aust Post.

The problem here is ebay is in the unenviable position of being in the middle and what they are seeing is that the label printed had the 'correct' address and uploaded evidence it was delivered. The trouble with an 'altered' label is usually they have no proof of who altered it or when. However, in your case you are very lucky because you have a lot of outside evidence to support your case. By the sounds of it, very solid outside evidence from not only Aust Post (which I think is the strongest) but also from the recipient and the actual box with the altered label.

The buyer of course could claim the box did have the item and the recipient must have removed it. Is there a weight recorded on the box label, was it an item that would significantly change a weight reading? If it was in a box, then I am guessing it might have been. A very light box weight would further support your claim.

I know ebay staff are not trained investigators but I think when it comes to cases like this, they are going to have to put some staff time into researching all the details-even if these cases are sent to a special section. They can't just trot out a generic response. If they suspect fraud they should also report it to ACORN.

In this case if they feel they still have to refund the buyer, it should come out of their own funds.

But I don't think just uploading evidence to ebay is enough, you'll need to talk to them and insist they re-examine your case.

Re: Scam - Return shipping label tampered.

auditech_online — Mon, 08 Oct 2018 22:44:49 GMT

We already talked to eBay, the staff on the phone cannot decide, so it's escalated to a manager offline. Then someone replied via email repeated the same decision and reason, disregarding our evidence. We will keep appealing.

In this case, the AusPost's statement is a red flag for eBay to issue the refund as the signature is not ours. I saw in another post saying no signature no refund for item over $750, but could not find the source. Not sure if this is eBays policy. I think it should be enought as long as we can prove the the parcel was sent to a different address deliberately, but will check the weight anyway.

Re: Scam - Return shipping label tampered.

auditech_online — Mon, 08 Oct 2018 22:46:00 GMT

It's the same shipping label with the same tracking number, only the address part got photoshoped.

Re: Scam - Return shipping label tampered.

auditech_online — Mon, 08 Oct 2018 22:46:50 GMT

Thanks for the advice. We will report to ACORN as well as the police.

Re: Scam - Return shipping label tampered.

clarry100 — Mon, 08 Oct 2018 23:01:13 GMT

Your local police won't probably care too much. If anything they should redirect you to The ACORN.

The ACORN is the federal police against online cybercrime, which thiis seems to be part of.

Once you do lodge a case then pass the case reference number to the scamming buyer to let them know they have been brought to the attention of the Federal Police

Re: Scam - Return shipping label tampered.

outback_blends — Tue, 09 Oct 2018 00:39:01 GMT

I would also invole the ombudsman. They seem to have more punch power than acorn

Re: Scam - Return shipping label tampered.

asporty — Tue, 09 Oct 2018 03:44:46 GMT

Which ombudsman? Ombudsman usually deal with specific sector (telecom, finance) so not sure which ombudsman can deal with this matter.

Re: Scam - Return shipping label tampered.

padi*0409 — Tue, 09 Oct 2018 04:27:51 GMT

@asporty wrote:
Which ombudsman? Ombudsman usually deal with specific sector (telecom, finance) so not sure which ombudsman can deal with this matter.

This one:-

https://www.fos.org.au/

Re: Scam - Return shipping label tampered.

clarry100 — Tue, 09 Oct 2018 07:25:43 GMT

FOS handles financial complaints.
In this case it was eBay who ordered the refund via PayPal. But eBay are not a registered financial organisation as they do not handle the financial side of transactions.
So the FOS won't deal with a complaint against eBay. They will against PayPal but PayPal only issued the refund at the direction of eBay.

In short I'm therefore not sure which ombudsman you would lodge a complaint with in this case. Typically the ACCC would handle complaints against eBay but not too sure you would get them to do too much.

Re: Scam - Return shipping label tampered.

countessalmirena — Tue, 09 Oct 2018 08:21:21 GMT

It would be a claim against PayPal.

Presuming the dispute is found in the OP's favour, PayPal would almost certainly seek to recover their losses/damage from eBay.

Re: Scam - Return shipping label tampered.

clarry100 — Tue, 09 Oct 2018 09:50:57 GMT

Reading from the OP it looks like the claim was made by the buyer thru ebay as they were the ones to send out the label that was reportedly tampered with.

So any refund would have been directed by ebay but actioned at their request thru PayPal.

Had the case been opened thru PayPal and they had made the decision to refund then, yes, the FOS would be the body to take it up with.

So I'm thinking this would be an ACCC case rather than any ombudsman.

If you call the FOS and decsribe what happened they will be able to advise you if/not they will handle the complaint and if not them then who will.

Re: Scam - Return shipping label tampered.

auditech_online — Mon, 22 Oct 2018 04:57:28 GMT

An update:

We wasted too much time with the eBay customer service on Email, every email replied by a different agent repeating the same

The only thing eBay stood on is the system information from Auspost showing the item is signed and delivered.

We argued the signature is not ours and eBay requested us to provide investigation result from Auspost.

Auspost issued us a statement proving that the address was altered and we are not the recipient.

Ebay still refused to reverse the decision, saying the decision is final and the case is closed.

It is appalling that Ebay chose to stand with the scammers...

Any suggestions?

Re: Scam - Return shipping label tampered.

*tippy*toes* — Mon, 22 Oct 2018 05:31:26 GMT

Try phoning them, or use the call back option. Email is a complete waste of time as the replies are bot generated. It can take a bit to get a human to reply. If you use the call back option, you usually get someone who is ranked slightly higher than the usual monkeys. If you get no satisfaction talking to that person, ask to speak to a supervisor.

Re: Scam - Return shipping label tampered.

auditech_online — Mon, 22 Oct 2018 05:39:04 GMT

Tried call back, same decision, can't believe.

Re: Scam - Return shipping label tampered.

digital*ghost — Mon, 22 Oct 2018 07:44:18 GMT

I would publicly shame them as much as possible - Ecommercebytes is a good place to start.

Re: Scam - Return shipping label tampered.

countessalmirena — Mon, 22 Oct 2018 10:28:27 GMT

Make a Statutory Declaration and contact eBay again using the "Have us call you" option. Inform them that you have made a Statutory Declaration and ask for a fax number to upload it, and add that you can send the original by mail if they provide a physical address.

Very politely state that if they are not willing to review the decision, you will be lodging a dispute with the Financial Services Ombudsman. You may want to make it clear (in a very polite and friendly way) that you are aware that the complaint will be against PayPal as the financial organisation involved, and that PayPal would of course subsequently seek to recover funds from eBay in the event that the dispute will be found in your favour. (The funds PayPal would seek to recover would comprise not just the amount refunded to you, but any and all costs involved, such as the fine/costs incurred by PayPal in the event of the FOS resolving in your favour.)

Make certain that you record the call and take notes throughout. Of course make sure that the CS rep gives consent for the call to be recorded. (I give some details about recording calls in this thread: https://community.ebay.com.au/t5/Buying/I-purchased-an-iPhone-from-a-seller-that-is-selling-stolen/m-p/2160280#M90889)

If eBay don't reverse their decision, then call PayPal and outline what has occurred. Ask for your funds to be refunded. If they say that it's an eBay matter, politely ask for a fax number to which you can upload the Stat Dec. State that you are doing so because you wish to offer them every opportunity to protect you, so that you won't need to lodge a dispute with the FOS.

(Again, record the call; get permission from the PayPal rep for the call to be recorded at the start. Take notes as well.)

Call PayPal Customer Service

1800 073 263 (toll free)
+61 2 8223 9500

Go to this page (https://www.paypal.com/au/smarthelp/contact-us) for your one-off passcode.
[You'll be asked to enter this unique code on the phone.)

Customer Service hours

6am to 10pm AEST Monday to Friday
8am to 7pm AEST Saturday and Sunday

IT'S IMPORTANT TO ENSURE THAT YOU ONLY USE AN EXTERNAL RECORDING DEVICE IF YOU ARE RECORDING THE CALL.

(Put your phone on speaker, and use a phone or tablet or tape recorder to record. Remember also to record the permission at the start of the call. If no permission, you must turn off the recording device.)

(Don't neglect the taking of notes. Date, time, name of person to whom you're speaking, details of what is discussed, and don't forget to go through the process of summarising as you come to the end of the call. Summarising ensures that you specify what's been discussed; the other person agrees that the points you specify were discussed, and agrees that certain things have been agreed upon / decided / etc. You can then be certain that clarity has been achieved, and if you have to lodge a dispute, you will have evidence that your version of events and any discussions is lucid and correct.)

BE PREPARED BEFORE YOU MAKE ANY PHONE CALLS. Have everything to hand, and have all the details ready for you to provide.

If PayPal don't agree to remedy the situation (and I suspect they won't in this case), then do go ahead and lodge with the FOS.

Even if the FOS can't assist (although I think you have a good chance of being able to get satisfaction), there are other options. Post again if you do all the above and still find yourself in the doldrums, but post anyway to keep us updated!