topic Re: Fake Items - Genuine Question in Selling

Fake Items - Genuine Question

di*s-stuff — Thu, 23 Aug 2012 05:12:10 GMT

I'm asking a genuine question so I'd like genuine answers please, not attacks.

On my other thread I was accused of selling unlicensed items ie fakes. Can someone please define fakes for me. I do not claim anywhere to be selling licensed merchandise and search very hard to find images that are not copyrighted. A lot of these images are used by other sellers on ebay selling similiar items as well ( don't know if that's coincidence or they also search for non-copyright images). I then put in a lot of time and effort to make these images not only suitable but for use on the items they are being printed onto, but also look good as well.

I sell items with a wide variety of images - at what point does an item become a "fake something"?

Someone else said I could be facing gaol time because I'm dropshipping and so importing the items. Dropshipping is a perfectly legal and legitimate way to sell items as long as you pay the relevant fees and taxes.

I did a lot of research including speaking to someone from the ATO about the situation regarding taxes/GST/customs before I started my business so that I'd know what to do regarding all of that.

Thank you in advance for helpful replies regarding the whole "fake items" question.

Re: Fake Items - Genuine Question

digital*ghost — Thu, 23 Aug 2012 05:24:37 GMT

Fake items are anything that purport to be something they're not - eg a Nike symbol on a shoe not manufactured by Nike.

Your items aren't fake, per se, but I'd be willing to bet that some of them are unofficial, unlicensed (i.e. the names and images used without permission), and if so are a serious breach of copyright which would mean you are selling them at your own risk. If pursued, the fines for selling unlicensed items can be significant (I'm talking hundreds of thousands).

Re: Fake Items - Genuine Question

foxette-in-sox — Thu, 23 Aug 2012 05:24:38 GMT

Very clear in Ebay policies

Counterfeits, unauthorised replicas, unauthorised items (such as counterfeit Dvd’s, watches, handbags, or other accessories) or unauthorised copies (such as copies of software programs, video games, music albums, movies, television programs, or photographs) are not permitted on eBay. Unauthorised copies include (but are not limited to) copies that are pirated, duplicated, backed-up or bootlegged. It is illegal to sell unauthorised copies of media.

Guideline: If the product you are selling bears the name or logo of a company, but it wasn't made or endorsed by that company, don't list it on eBay.

Violations of this policy may result in a range of actions, including:

Listing cancellation

Limits on account privileges

Account suspension

Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings

Loss of PowerSeller status

Sellers may not deny knowledge of, or responsibility for, the authenticity or legality of the items offered in their listings. Sellers should take steps to ensure their items are authentic before listing them on eBay. If a seller cannot verify the authenticity of an item, they are not permitted to list it.

Violations of this policy may result in a range of actions, including:

Listing cancellation

Limits on account privileges

Account suspension

Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings

Loss of PowerSeller status

Re: Fake Items - Genuine Question

foxette-in-sox — Thu, 23 Aug 2012 05:28:21 GMT

How do you know if you're infringing someone's copyright, trademark or other rights when you create your item listings? To find out, look at the guidelines listed below. This list will help you determine if your item is infringing (violating copyright law) or prohibited (not allowed on eBay Australia). Not allowing these items on the site protects you from liability and helps make eBay a safe place for trading. Selling or buying any of these items could put you at risk for civil or criminal liability. Your listing could be ended early and you may be suspended from eBay.

eBay Guideline:

Contrary to popular belief, the fact that material is posted on the world wide web does not mean it is in the "public domain" or otherwise free to be taken, copied or used by others.Creators of web content probably have copyright, trademark and other rights in thematerial they create. Copying, modifying and possibly linking to content created by others could expose you to legal liability.

eBay Guideline:

No Copying Allowed! When you prepare your listings you generally should use only material (text, photographs, etc.) and trademarks/names that you created or own yourself, or have licensed from the owners.

What is a copyright?

A copyright is the protection given throughout the world to certain original works of authorship, including text, pictures, music, etc. The owner of a copyright holds the exclusive right to duplicate, distribute and create derivative works from his work. Auction listings often contain text, photographs and the names/trademarks of companies. The text and photographs which you create and use in item listings may be protected by copyright laws.

If you copy someone else's text or original photograph, or copy text or photographs from any other place (depending upon how much is copied), you may be infringing someone's copyright. They may be able to request the ending of your item listing through our Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) Program.

Here are some examples of potentially infringing listings:

You scan a photograph of Elvis Presley (without permission) to use in a listing in which you are selling an authentic autograph of Elvis Presley

Re: Fake Items - Genuine Question

the-kazbar — Thu, 23 Aug 2012 05:44:17 GMT

Using an image from a google search (whether it has a copyright symbol) for commercial perposes is very shakey ground.

The person who took the photo has rights as does the person who owns it (if it was sold to a media outlet etc) and as does the person who the photo is of.

Just because an image is in the public domain does not make it public property and you need to get permission from the rights owner or personality if you want to use it for financial gain.

Even if you were to personally take a photo of a celebrity, you would not automatically own the commercial right to print it on bags, posters etc as the celebrity owns their image even once they are dead.

You should probably do some research on "personal rights" "publicity rights" and "natural rights".

Personally I would also seek some legal advice as I believe that you could be sued for a lot of money, if not prosecuted. It is not a good enough defence to say "well, others are doing it too"

Re: Fake Items - Genuine Question

the-kazbar — Thu, 23 Aug 2012 05:45:33 GMT

Sorry, that first sentance should read " Using an image from a google search (whether it has a copyright symbol or not) for commercial purposes is very shakey ground."

All other typos are their for your personal enjoyment 🙂

Re: Fake Items - Genuine Question

di*s-stuff — Thu, 23 Aug 2012 06:50:17 GMT

Thank you all for the replies, I am doing some research right now.

Re the reply about the autographed photo of Elvis Presley -

That means that everyone who takes a photo of an autographed item to use in a listing to sell that item is actually infringing copyright??

How would you sell autographed items then? Surely no-one would buy an autographed item without at least seeing a picture of it first? Not that I have any autographed anything, I'm just curious.

Re: Fake Items - Genuine Question

putney32 — Thu, 23 Aug 2012 07:42:47 GMT

no di.... not illegal to take a photo of an autograph to sell it,,... but you cannot sell it with a PHOTO of the person unless you have the right to use that said Photo of the person.

Re: Fake Items - Genuine Question

foxette-in-sox — Thu, 23 Aug 2012 07:47:51 GMT

I did a lot of research including speaking to someone from the ATO about the situation regarding taxes/GST/customs before I started my business so that I'd know what to do regarding all of that.

BUT,at any time during those conversations,did you SPECIFICALLY state you would be selling fakes/counterfeits/unlicenced-call them what you like.

Re: Fake Items - Genuine Question

ambridgebuckskins — Thu, 23 Aug 2012 07:53:23 GMT

One of my sidelines is sublimation printing also but mainly for company/business promotion, l sell a few ready made items just to keep the printer heads primed up.

Using other people's images is usually a no no unless you have their written permission. There are some web sites that have royalty free images but not photos of pop stars (l don't know what you call singers now a days but 'pop stars' will do).

l watched a local print shop get fined big big $$ for printing a tee shirt with a photo that was taken by a pro (and not paid for).

l watched a vinyl cutting mob close down because they started selling the My Family stickers and got caught.

If you didn't take the image, or don't have written permission to use an image - don't use it or sell it.

If the company (who own the One Direction rights) wanted to get all legal on you, you'd be toast sad to say.

I know 'everybody else is doing it' but they aren't the ones who get caught!

Re: Fake Items - Genuine Question

phorum_junkie* — Thu, 23 Aug 2012 11:39:42 GMT

If you took those photos yourself then you own the copyright. If you didn't then the copyright is owned by the person who did and you cannot use them in any way unless you have their written permission.

If you are not creating the items themselves then it is up to you to obtain proof that the manufacturer you are buying from has that permission.

Dropshipping is of course legal, although often ill advised on ebay, but all the responsibility is yours and once again if the person you are dealing with does not have a legal right to use the copyright then the buck and the repurcutions stop with you!

Re: Fake Items - Genuine Question

leader-of-the-band — Fri, 24 Aug 2012 10:53:50 GMT

I do not claim anywhere to be selling licensed merchandise and search very hard to find images that are not copyrighted. A lot of these images are used by other sellers on ebay selling similiar items as well ( don't know if that's coincidence or they also search for non-copyright images). I then put in a lot of time and effort to make these images not only suitable but for use on the items they are being printed onto, but also look good as well.

I copied the One Direction photo from a 'backpack' you have listed. I then cropped that photo and uploaded it into a reverse image google search. I found that that image has been used in a lot of places on the internet. I also found that that image was taken by John Urbano (who appears to be a well know photographer).

Take a look at http://www.flare.com/blog/post/63100 where the photo has the John Urbano credit immediately below it

and, I also found the image on this page http://www.billboard.com/events/one-direction-coming-to-saturday-night-live-1006434352.story#/events/one-direction-coming-to-saturday-night-live-1006434352.story where the photo has the John Urbano credit immediately below it.

So, I am only guessing, but I would say that copyright of that image rests with John Urbano and to use that for commercial gain would require his permission.

Re: Fake Items - Genuine Question

leader-of-the-band — Fri, 24 Aug 2012 11:19:54 GMT

I also found that one of the images for the Keith Urban polar fleece is an image that was used on the front cover of the sheet music for the song "You Gonna Fly". Probably a safe bet that the image was taken by a professional photographer who has copyright on the image.

Re: Fake Items - Genuine Question

di*s-stuff — Fri, 24 Aug 2012 11:22:43 GMT

leader-of-the-band, thank you for that information. I don't know how to do a reverse image search and as you said, you do a search and the same image comes up on hundreds of sites.

I have actually started taking down some of my listings as I don't want to be the one person to get fined for big $'s.

It's very hard to see others on here doing the same thing - some of them even have top rated seller status and have been selling on ebay for years - do they have some kind of "in" with ebay?......

I'm thinking I might try writing to some people to get permission to use photos. It would be nice to be the one person who is actually doing things the right way.

Re: Fake Items - Genuine Question

digital*ghost — Fri, 24 Aug 2012 11:41:34 GMT

tin-eye is one site that can do a search on images, though it generally only works if they have the same file name (i.e. it doesn't work based on image content).

There are a lot of different licences that can be granted for image use, but to use them in a commercial capacity it will cost, sometimes quite a lot depending on the original source, and exactly what rights of use the license grants (eg some won't allow you to edit the image in any way, add text etc). Sometimes with commercial licenses - especially when it comes to images of popular celebrities - not only do you have to pay a fee to be able to use the image, but you also have to pay royalties ( a percentage of total sales using that image).

The only time it won't cost (other than if you are granted permission from the copyright holder without charge) is if the image is either licensed under creative commons with a 'free for commercial use' component, or the image is in the public domain. Some artists freely give their work to the public domain or give it a CC license with some limitations, and that means you can use the image for any purpose (personal or commercial), without paying a cent to anyone, as long as any of the conditions in a CC license are met (most commonly not to alter the image and to give proper credit to the artist).

There's quite a few sites that have royalty-free images that you can buy a lifetime use license for, but they're not of celebrities or anything (general stock images, icons, banners and logos).

On a side-note - kudos to you for taking this information on board and doing the right thing. Good luck with your selling. 🙂

Re: Fake Items - Genuine Question

leader-of-the-band — Fri, 24 Aug 2012 11:41:47 GMT

leader-of-the-band, thank you for that information. I don't know how to do a reverse image search and as you said, you do a search and the same image comes up on hundreds of sites.

Reverse image searches are easy.

Go to this google search page https://www.google.com.au/imghp?hl=en&tab=wi

Click on the 'camera' that is over at the right hand side of the search box. On the page that loads you click on "Upload an image" and then click on "browse" to select an image that is on your computer.

And it is done!

Re: Fake Items - Genuine Question

phorum_junkie* — Fri, 24 Aug 2012 11:55:11 GMT

some of them even have top rated seller status and have been selling on ebay for years

And an awful lot of them are not dropshipping as such, they have Aus bank accounts and register on the Au site but are really in China or HK and are selling direct on ebay as well as using naive sellers like yourself to dropship their cheap carp. You can see the same carp at markets and in cheapo shops, what you don't hear enough about are the raids that take place where the stallholders are arrested!

Over and over again people come here with tales of woe after dropshipping and finding out that eventually the proverbial has hit the fan.

At least as you are dropshipping you have not invested in thousands of dollars worth of stock, many poor saps have purchased a container load only to find it is worth less than nothing and can land them in jail after seeing their goods seized at the border and destroyed.

Re: Fake Items - Genuine Question

watch-12 — Fri, 27 Sep 2013 19:37:29 GMT

hi my 12 year old bought a signed photo of louis Tomlinson when i went to pay 3 or 4 days later there were a case for non payment i told the seller the item was fake he wouldent cansel now i have a non payment on my page what to do

Re: Fake Items - Genuine Question

putney32 — Fri, 27 Sep 2013 22:01:02 GMT

watch.....

as this is a ONE YEAR OLD thread, not about your problem, I would suggest you open a new post to get guidance on your problem.