topic Re: Please be careful everyone in Selling

Please be careful everyone

eddie575714 — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 07:20:26 GMT

Hi everyone , at the end of november i sold 2 items which sold for over $1500 ( what a thrill , just before christmas ) wrapped them carefully in a box , bubblewrap etc and took to post office , sent registered mail with signiture , went from adelaide to melbourne , tracked to melbourne mail sorting , and disappeared , called australia post around 8 times in 6 weeks , mostly being on hold 30 - 75 minutes on hold before answering due to christmas , they couldnt find it at all as it must have imploded when reaching vic mail sorting , in the end was eventually given $100 to compensate my loss from australia post , the buyer was extrememly patient but this week took out a item not recieved claim , so i had to make sure i had the $1370 to refund him as ebay/paypal fees were over $170 , ok, maybe they were stolen as we put our trust in the mail company , im a very small seller on here and didnt realise i could have insured the item , so i call paypal about seller protection yesterday and im told i wouldnt qualify for anything because i couldnt prove i sent it , registered post wasnt good enough , i had to physically photograph or video the item being lodged in the post office , ive noone to turn to as the system is so stacked against the little person but hopefully whoever reads this will cover themselves against being totally ripped off and to cover themselves in whatever way they can , please be careful everyone and have a nice new year

Re: Please be careful everyone

twyngwyn — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 07:36:55 GMT

contact ACORN......sounds BOGUS

Re: Please be careful everyone

eddie575714 — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 07:41:19 GMT

Thank you , whats acorn

Re: Please be careful everyone

countessalmirena — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 08:08:30 GMT

eddie575714, what a horrible experience.

ACORN is the Australian Cybercrime Online Reporting Network. You can report cybercrimes Australia-wide, and ACORN will also pass on information in cases of international cybercrime.

eBay's Money Back Guarantee states:

❝If asked to step in, we review the information provided by the buyer and seller for evidence of successful on-time delivery to the buyer. We require proof of signature to confirm delivery for items with a total cost of $750 or more.

If we determine that the item wasn't successfully delivered, the buyer will be refunded the full cost of the item and original postage via PayPal or as otherwise agreed. The seller will be required to reimburse us for the amount unless the seller can provide compelling reasons as to why the seller should not cover the costs. It is up to the seller to ensure that items are correctly listed and packed appropriately to avoid damage to the item in transit.❞

The problem here is that although you did the right thing in sending with signature required, the parcel was clearly never delivered to the buyer so that there isn't any proof of signature.

Can you give PayPal a call to see if you're covered under PayPal Seller Protection? For PayPal, you don't require proof of delivery... just proof of shipping.

❝At the very least, your documentation must include:

The date the item was sent; and
An official acceptance by the shipper, such as a postmark or online status. (Status that shows the item was delivered is also acceptable.)

It must also include either:

The recipient’s delivery address, showing at least the state, city and postcode (or international equivalent); or
A receipt from Australia Post showing at least the recipient’s suburb, city or postcode (or international equivalent).

Examples of proof of shipping include:

A copy of the shipping receipt or shipping label that includes the delivery address, or
For Australia Post eParcel customers, a copy of the consignment information page which shows the delivery address and the online tracking code that can be used to confirm delivery, or
A shipping code PayPal can use online to view the shipping status and delivery address. You can get this from TNT, DHL, FedEx, Skippy Post and other carriers, or
A receipt issued by the carrier, signed by the recipient acknowledging delivery.❞

You should first of all contact eBay. eBay's "Have us call you" option is by far the best way to get in touch with eBay. (Emails are useless, for a number of reasons, but primarily because the responses, when they are finally sent, are bot-generated.)

eBay say: We'll call you at the phone number registered to your account, or you can enter a different number.

We’re available from 8am to 10pm AET, 7 days a week.

Record the call and/or take notes during the call. (See this post and also this post on what's involved and how to ensure you do this properly and legally.)

If it doesn't turn out satisfactorily with your eBay call, then phone PayPal Customer Service

1800 073 263 (toll free)
+61 2 8223 9500

Go to this page (https://www.paypal.com/au/smarthelp/contact-us) for your one-off passcode.
[You'll be asked to enter this unique code on the phone.)

Customer Service hours

6am to 10pm AEST Monday to Friday
8am to 7pm AEST Saturday and Sunday

Do the same thing (take notes including summary, and record the call with permission).

You have to have gone through these steps before you take it further if you want to complain to Australian Financial Complaints Authority (formerly FOS - it changed as of November 2018).

Make a complaint with the Australian Financial Complaints Authority (AFCA) (formerly the Financial Ombdusman Serivce (FOS). You should only start such a complaint if you've tried and failed to achieve a resolution through PayPal or whatever financial institution was involved in the transaction. (They will ask you about this!)

BUT...

... you can also try shaming Australia Post into doing another search and finding the parcel or refunding you for the value of the item. Anecdotally, getting in touch via AP's Facebook page and posting the general details for the world to see has proven to get good results.

Good luck.

Re: Please be careful everyone

digital*ghost — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 08:53:57 GMT

eBay's MBG wouldn't have been utilised in this case, since the sale was in November, and the INR was opened this week, so it's only PayPal's eligibility requirements that would need to be met.

The advice PayPal has given you, OP, is 100% BS.

It's unclear if the dispute is still active, or a refund has been granted, but in any case, to have valid proof of shipping, you need something that establishes the address the package was sent to, something that establishes the package was handed over to Australia post, and - due to the value - something that proves signature on delivery was added to the package. If you don't have documentation that establishes these things, the advice above to seek it from Australia Post is the best way to go. The only way this may be a problem is if there were two separate payments for the items and you combined them into a single package.

The other issue will be that in the vast majority of cases, only one person gets their money back via a PayPal dispute where INR is concerned. If the seller doesn't establish proof of post, the buyer's claim is successful. If the seller does establish proof of post, the buyer is not eligible for protection and their claim will generally fail, unless either one is one of the lucky few who get a discretionary payment, however on the rare occasions that happens, it's usually for low amounts.

If a refund has already been provided, I would go the AFCA route, as PayPal may well have completely mishandled the case.

Re: Please be careful everyone

countessalmirena — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 09:04:27 GMT

(I neglected to "register" the date information... I'm glad you picked that up!)

Re: Please be careful everyone

eddie575714 — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 09:17:19 GMT

All the post office gave me was the pink registered sticker and the reciept to say ide payed for registered and signed on delivery , so no proof of where i sent it to , lol it had the big australia post sticky label that ide put on the box with the address on there , but the post office say theres nothing they can do as havent experienced anything like this before 😞

Re: Please be careful everyone

digital*ghost — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 09:32:39 GMT

@eddie575714 wrote:
All the post office gave me was the pink registered sticker and the reciept to say ide payed for registered and signed on delivery , so no proof of where i sent it to , lol it had the big australia post sticky label that ide put on the box with the address on there , but the post office say theres nothing they can do as havent experienced anything like this before 😞

That might explain the advice PayPal provided then, as photos / videos are acceptable if they establish something where no other documentation can be provided. (i.e., rather than them saying "you needed to have video", is it possible they were saying "in the absence of other documentation, the photos of video can be provided as evidence"?)

Still, the receipt sometimes shows the delivery postcode, if it does and you still have all that, although it's a high-value claim, it's supporting evidence of the delivery address, and might help if you take the case to AFCA, because it's evidence none the less.

Re: Please be careful everyone

k1ooo-slr-sales — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 14:19:00 GMT

@eddie575714 wrote:

. . . . . so i call paypal about seller protection yesterday and im told i wouldnt qualify for anything because i couldnt prove i sent it , registered post wasnt good enough , i had to physically photograph or video the item being lodged in the post office . . . . .

the bolded part of the quote above caught my attention.

I am only posting for a little comic relief, sorry I can’t offer any advice to help you.

Photographing parcels at the Post Office was the subject of a lengthy thread some years back. For a little comic relief, have a read of this thread (but please, as funny as it is, do not post on that thread):

https://community.ebay.com.au/t5/Selling/let-me-explain-some-parts-of-the-law/td-p/1850476

It is lengthy, and it goes around and around in circles, but there are some real gems in there.

Re: Please be careful everyone

Anonymous — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 21:11:28 GMT

I don't think you can expect AP to reimburse you because you didn't insure it. If we could all get reimbursed for lost parcels without insuring them, why pay for insurance? It's a hard lesson to learn but you should never send items worth that much without insuring them against loss.

I can't understand why anyone would suggest the buyer is making a bogus claim when there's no record of it ever having been delivered.

Re: Please be careful everyone

springyzone — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 21:53:00 GMT

Have to say I feel sorry for both parties here.

To me, the seller could have all the proof in the world that they posted it off with registered post or whatever, videos galore etc, but there also needs to be some proof that the buyer received it, and from what I have read, that is totally lacking. The item has been lost in the system, so it seems.

In the circumstances, I would expect the buyer to get a full refund. They paid over $1300 for something they did not receive. If it was signature on delivery, where is their signature? There isn't one.

What sort of confidence would buyers have in ebay if they could order items, pay for secure postage but still fail to be refunded when an item did not arrive?

On the other hand, the poor seller. He obviously did post the expensive item off, he paid for secure postage and because he didn't realise about insurance, all he has is $100 in compensation.

I can't see that ebay or paypal though could do anything else but refund the buyer. My hope is that the item has not been permanently lost in the system but will turn up down the track. Don't give up hope as it has happened to me, with one item almost 3 months behind something else posted at the same time.

The only thing is, if it does turn up, it will most likely be at the address of the buyer. Luckily, it sounds as if this is a decent & reasonable buyer so maybe the seller should message the buyer and mention the possibility & say that if it does turn up later, to please let them know & they will arrange to pay return postage (insured).

Re: Please be careful everyone

lyndal1838 — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 22:36:56 GMT

How did you manage to register a parcel?

Registered mail is only for letter post, not parcels.

Your post office should not have even sold registered post for a parcel and should have asked if you needed insurance.

Re: Please be careful everyone

brerrabbit585 — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 23:18:48 GMT

We don't know that the post office didn't offer extra cover, Lyndal, but the OP probably wouldn't have known what they were talking about and probably assumed they were covered. The fact that they keep referring to SOD as registered indicates they still don't understand a lot.

Bottom line is that it's up to the sender to do due diligence and not just assume everything will be okay. It was the OP's mistake so if anyone has to pay for it, they should.

Re: Please be careful everyone

lyndal1838 — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 23:32:04 GMT

Registered mail is automatically signed....you can pay extra to have a copy of the signature sent to the sender.

I still wonder exactly what the OP was sold.

Unfortunately it is ultimately up to the seller to understand what services he was using and what recompense he could expect if it went pearshaped.

Re: Please be careful everyone

brerrabbit585 — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 05:09:08 GMT

"sent registered mail with signiture" (from opening post) so I assume it was sent with signature on delivery, seeing it won't have been sent registered if it was larger than an envelope (in a box with bubblewrap).

Re: Please be careful everyone

imastawka — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 05:33:54 GMT

OP sold 2 CD's for $1500 - well done for that.

But I don't know how they managed to get them through as letter mail.

One, yeah. But two?

Re: Please be careful everyone

1781anna — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 08:42:41 GMT

CD`s were listed as $9.95 postage each in 500 gram satchels. Could you fit 2 cd`s side by side in a satchel? Only way they could go large letter rate and be registered. On top of each other would be too thick over 20mm

Re: Please be careful everyone

1781anna — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:12:14 GMT

Just did some quick calculations. Biggest large letter size is 360mm x 260mm x 20mm and 500 grams. A 500 gram satchel is 355mm x 220mm and 2 cd`s laying flat measure around 250mm x 145mm x 10mm thick. So could be sent as a large letter even wrapped in bubble wrap. Weight would be around 250 grams

Re: Please be careful everyone

davewil1964 — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:20:44 GMT

wrapped them carefully in a box , bubblewrap etc

Unlikely to have been sent as a letter.

Re: Please be careful everyone

imastawka — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:28:04 GMT

Then how is that 'sent registered mail, with signature'?