topic Re: Interesting Chargeback Case - How to Proceed? in Selling

Interesting Chargeback Case - How to Proceed?

everard6920 — Tue, 05 Mar 2019 22:06:34 GMT

Just want to start by saying that it's only for a $17 transaction, so financially it isn't a big deal. I'm more concerned about letting a potentially sketchy buyer go unchecked.

Had a chargeback opened yesterday, for a transaction at the end of December (as I said, $17). "The buyer stated that they didn't authorise the purchase".

So I do a quick transaction history check and find that the same buyer has purchased from me prior to December - in 2015 and 2016, in fact - with a different account, but with the same name, address, and the username almost the same as the chargeback username (the only difference being a full stop).

Not knowing exactly what the buyer is claiming (eg: whether or not they're claiming that their eBay was also hacked, and so forth) I messaged the buyer.

To summarise, my message was, "I see you've filed a chargeback. I can also see that I have previous transactions with your name, address, and similar username from 2015/2016, so I'm confused. Please advise, otherwise I'll need to send all relevant information, including the above, to Paypal regarding this case."

This was a bluff: I have no intention of contesting the case because I don't have tracking and I am not paying a $15 fee.

Buyer replies and says that he let his friend use his eBay and Paypal accounts to make purchases, and that his friend put his card on to his (the buyer's) Paypal. The buyer said that he didn't realise that his friend's card was set as default payment method on the Paypal account still, and that he had inadvertently made purchases and used his friend's card to pay. He said he was "sorting it out" with his friend.

Hmmm. So if this is true, then technically it IS an unauthorised transaction ...

How would you proceed?

Re: Interesting Chargeback Case - How to Proceed?

curraone — Tue, 05 Mar 2019 23:10:42 GMT

he had inadvertently made purchases and used his friend's card to pay.

I think this means that he did mean to buy. Therefore it should not be a case of a dispute with you.

He used his mate's card to pay instead of his own. Surely that's his problem.

Nobody "inadvertently" buys anything. He has the goods. I would continue to wait, and perhaps reply thanking him for undertaking to sort it out with his friend.

Keep all you emails from him in case he follows through further.

Re: Interesting Chargeback Case - How to Proceed?

imastawka — Tue, 05 Mar 2019 23:26:55 GMT

Buyer replies and says that he let his friend use his eBay and Paypal accounts to make purchases, and that his friend put his card on to his (the buyer's) Paypal.

I would keep that message and send it to Paypal, for a start.

I believe it's in the User Agreement that you can't let anyone else use your account. I may be wrong. I can't find the relevent policy atm.

The card used didn't belong to a member, so I can't see that it has anything to do with you being involved.

The name on the card and the member's name would be different.

It's between the member and their friend IMO

Re: Interesting Chargeback Case - How to Proceed?

Anonymous — Tue, 05 Mar 2019 23:29:04 GMT

I agree. hardly everard's fault if this person 'let his mate add his card' and then his mate (assumingly) did'nt remember his card was on the account........why not pull his mate up and ask what the heck man? and get his money back off the mate and remove his card from said account

Sounds sus to me and makes me wonder if this is the only time this has happened or if the mate knows exactly what is going on and taking advantage. Hmmmmmm

Re: Interesting Chargeback Case - How to Proceed?

brerrabbit585 — Tue, 05 Mar 2019 23:35:07 GMT

That doesn't make sense. He would have already had his own card on file with paypal so how could his friend have added his own card with a different name on it? When you open a paypal account they check the name on the card that you register and deduct a $1 payment to check that it's legit, then they refund it later. I can't see how they could add a second card later, not with a different name on it. If they bought as a guest they may be able to do it but I'm not really sure about that. It might be a good idea to ring paypal and ask is it possible to do what he's said.

Possibly the only way they could have done it was if your buyer opened a brand new account for his friend and then kept buying on it, but that doesn't really make sense and it certainly wouldn't tally up with what they've told you. I'd threaten to send their details to ACORN, perhaps ask for the friend's details so that you can include their details when you send a report to ACORN.

Re: Interesting Chargeback Case - How to Proceed?

digital*ghost — Tue, 05 Mar 2019 23:35:47 GMT

@everard6920 wrote:

Buyer replies and says that he let his friend use his eBay and Paypal accounts to make purchases, and that his friend put his card on to his (the buyer's) Paypal. The buyer said that he didn't realise that his friend's card was set as default payment method on the Paypal account still, and that he had inadvertently made purchases and used his friend's card to pay. He said he was "sorting it out" with his friend.

It's an interesting reply, but I'm not sure I buy it. I mean, if I have a credit card, which inherently carries significant protections, and I can use eBay indiscriminitely without even needing to sign up for an account, why would I bother using my friend's eBay account, and also going to the trouble of putting my credit card on file with their PayPal account? I don't understand the need for that, nor what the benefit would be.

Or how afer going to that kind of convoluted effort to buy stuff, basically forgetting about it, but notice some charges 2-3 months later, and automatically assume my card was compromised instead of checking whether my friend might have inadvertently made a purchase.

Also, my friend never picked up on the fact that they never had to pay for stuff they bought.

There's really only 3 options available to you, though - accept liability, fight the chargeback, or do nothing (which I believe just ends up with the same conclusion as fighting the chargeback without meeting the requirements for protection, since you're not complying with any requests for further info etc, but has the potential to buy time for the buyer to sort it out, if they are on the level).

I'm usually a bit more dramatic when I contact buyers about chargebacks, I want them to know there can be serious real life consequences to these kinds of things - no matter which way you look at it, unauthorised transaction claims mean credit card fraud (unless one believes the bank initiate them willy nilly, which I don't), so I straight up tell them that because it's an unauthorised use claim, I am required to report the fraud to ACORN, which of course involves handing all of their personal information over to what is (in a nutshell) a federal agency dealing with online fraud, who not only keep a permanent record of the incident, but pass on the data to the police local to the recipient of the item for them to investigate (this is all technically true, but how far it goes is best left to their imagination).

Re: Interesting Chargeback Case - How to Proceed?

Anonymous — Tue, 05 Mar 2019 23:44:11 GMT

To me,it actually sounds like the modern day version of ‘I was holding it for a friend’

Re: Interesting Chargeback Case - How to Proceed?

digital*ghost — Tue, 05 Mar 2019 23:59:46 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
To me,it actually sounds like the modern day version of ‘I was holding it for a friend’

Yeah, me too - the story is unique, but at the core it's still one of the most common replies these people make - it wasn't my fault, and I promise I'll sort it out.

Still waiting for my blameless buyers to "sort it out". -_-

Re: Interesting Chargeback Case - How to Proceed?

brerrabbit585 — Wed, 06 Mar 2019 00:02:40 GMT

Was that ID a new one at the time they bought from you? Have they got much feedback from other sellers? If they have, especially feedback left after December, perhaps contact some of the other sellers and ask have they also had chargebacks against them. It wouldn't make sense for the friend to have still been buying using that account, and if they have been then your buyer should have been pretty aware of what's going on. I still don't believe you can add someone else's card to your account though.

I mentioned using a different card as a guest in my last post but that wouldn't apply because they've said the mate's card is the default one attached to paypal, which I find hard to believe. If you ring paypal you'll find out whether that's even possible, which will also tell you whether they're blatantly lying.

I think you'll find that the terms of use re credit cards and the like is that you can't give your details to anyone else and you're responsible for the safety of your account details. Surely that'd mean you can't attach your card to someone else's paypal account. I'd ring the bank concerned and explain a few things.

Re: Interesting Chargeback Case - How to Proceed?

brerrabbit585 — Wed, 06 Mar 2019 00:09:30 GMT

When the bank does a chargeback, surely you'd be given the name of the cardholder, which would be different to the owner of the paypal account. If that's not the case I'd be asking why.

Re: Interesting Chargeback Case - How to Proceed?

curraone — Wed, 06 Mar 2019 00:10:54 GMT

Actually this is quite possible - I have several cards attached to my paypal account and one of them is in my spouse's name.

Re: Interesting Chargeback Case - How to Proceed?

purplemon18 — Wed, 06 Mar 2019 07:08:39 GMT

@curraone wrote:
Actually this is quite possible - I have several cards attached to my paypal account and one of them is in my spouse's name.

Same here.

OP, you might try actually calling Paypal about it, but don't let it time out without a resolution.

Re: Interesting Chargeback Case - How to Proceed?

clarry100 — Wed, 06 Mar 2019 22:57:38 GMT

Some years back now we had a chargeback for a small amount under $10. No tracking so destined to lose the case.

But I thought I would call PayPal and discuss the case anyway.

After some discussion with a CSR in the USA they decided that they would close the case "NO FAULT".

This was due to me having a PayPal account in good standing and an excellent ebay selling record.

What this meant was that the buyer still got their refund via the chargeback but PayPal accepted the bill and it was not charged to my account.

So you might try this approach too.

Remember you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Re: Interesting Chargeback Case - How to Proceed?

everard6920 — Wed, 06 Mar 2019 23:21:06 GMT

Thank you all for your replies.

I have until the 14th of March (next Thurs) to contest it.

I have messaged the buyer. I told him that I will give him and his friend until Monday to sort it out, otherwise I'll be taking it further (because honestly, I don't want to ring Paypal if I can avoid it ... it's like having teeth pulled isn't it ...)

I also said in the message that it was a fraudulent claim because his friend knowingly put his financial information on someone else's account and that, in order to qualify for bank protection against unauthorised transactions, you can't have done anything to have compromised your financial information (such as sharing it on someone else's account). Then I said that, given all that, I, other sellers, the bank and/or Paypal have grounds to report his friend to ACORN and/or other law enforcement (thanks Digi )

Hopefully that will be enough to spur some action. If not, I will follow up with Paypal on Monday. I'll post here if the buyer replies.

(I'm having a GREAT few days though . . . someone's 6 year old just bought 3 items, requested total, paid, and then the mother messaged me wanting to cancel! Fancy that?)

Re: Interesting Chargeback Case - How to Proceed?

*tippy*toes* — Wed, 06 Mar 2019 23:50:12 GMT

Nice change from the neighbour's goldfish.

Re: Interesting Chargeback Case - How to Proceed?

Anonymous — Thu, 07 Mar 2019 00:00:27 GMT

Have to wonder if the other buyer's 'friend' is related to the six year old?

Or a goldfish completing the entire transaction via the phone in their pants pocket, tippy

Re: Interesting Chargeback Case - How to Proceed?

everard6920 — Thu, 07 Mar 2019 00:20:27 GMT

Right, well ... it took all of 10 minutes for the buyer to respond to the message I detailed in my last post (funny, that)

He wants to know if there is anything he can do because it was his account that was used, and he said that his friend is "going ahead with it".

I don't even know what to believe any more ... on one hand, why would you admit to everything he has admitted to? On the other hand, this friend doesn't sound like much of a friend. He files unauthorised transactions without even asking the buyer, says he's going ahead with the claim, etc ... maybe the buyer really did steal the "friend's" credit card ... or they had a falling out ... or the buyer is refusing the pay the friend for the items so the friend is going ahead with the claim ... take your pick.

Whatever. I'm going to advise him to call Paypal and explain the situation, and reiterate that I will call Paypal on Monday if it's not sorted.

Re: Interesting Chargeback Case - How to Proceed?

countessalmirena — Thu, 07 Mar 2019 05:12:33 GMT

Hmm...

The story has a few holes in it as it stands. If the friend actually entered his card details into your buyer's PayPal account, as your buyer describes, then what your buyer is saying is substantially that the use of his friend's c/c was accidental, and that the friend should understand that it was accidental (if the scenario's as described). A one-time mistaken use of his c/c for a small dollar value purchase in circumstances where it could very conceivably have been unintentional on the buyer's part, and where the actual entering of the c/c details was done by the friend. ...? It's hard to believe that in such a case the buyer wouldn't say to the friend, "I am so sorry - my fault, and I'll give you either the cash or make a bank transfer straightaway so that you can tell the bank to close the chargeback immediately after. And of course I'm deleting your card details from my PayPal account immediately so that this can't happen again by accident."

So... that's hard to believe.

That is, it's hard to believe unless there were aggravating issues.

Perhaps the story of the friend's card being used for a one-off purchase by the friend is true, but the buyer has been spending up merrily, using the friend's card as the funding source, for rather more than one purchase. In that case, the friend would be fuming; that's credit card fraud. If the total amount of "accidental" purchases is significant, it's quite possible that the buyer can't pay back the amount immediately, or is stalling or denying responsibility... and clearly isn't aware that the issuing bank may very well come after him

Perhaps the story of the friend's card being used for a one-off purchase by the friend is not true, but the buyer has added the card to his PayPal account fraudulently, and then began using it as a funding source... not being challenged about it for some time as the friend didn't check the credit card statements for a while. (This could only work, I understand, if the c/c in question hadn't been used by the friend as a funding source for any other PayPal account - i.e., the friend either doesn't use PayPal at all or uses a different c/c for his PayPal account.) This would again be credit card fraud.

Perhaps the friend didn't even know that it was this buyer who used the card. Perhaps it's now become a police matter.

I think one thing has to be made clear. The buyer has admitted to using someone else's credit card to make a purchase from you. It's up to the buyer to remedy the situation as fast as possible. Tell the buyer what your desired outcome is, set a timeframe, and take no nonsense and enter into no negotiation.

❝ [your address]

[your email address]

[your phone number]

[date]

Dear [buyer].

In response to the current open case [case no. ###] involving a chargeback, in which you purchased [item no. ###] from us via PayPal using what you have stated is your friend's credit card as the funding source, this is your final notice that, unless you either

come to a swift agreement with your friend about your repaying him so that your friend (i.e., the card owner) contacts his issuing bank immediately (by end of business xx.xx.2019) to close the chargeback process (and so that your friend also contacts PayPal by phone to advise that the chargeback request is being cancelled), or
make payment of the original cost ($xx.xx) IN FULL by either PayPal using your own funding source OR by bank transfer to my account BSB xxx Account No. xxxxx, upon which we shall advise PayPal that alternative payment has been made and that the chargeback claim will not be contested by us,

you will be reported to the Australian Cybercrime Online Reporting Network (ACORN).

Purchasing goods using someone else's credit card without authorisation (be it directly or via PayPal), is a criminal offence, i.e., "obtaining property by deception".

A person who, by any deception, dishonestly takes property belonging to another person with the intention of permanently depriving that person is guilty of obtaining property by deception. Obtaining property by deception is an indictable offence that carries a maximum penalty of 10 years’ imprisonment and/or a fine of 1,200 penalty units. Indictable offences are more serious offences triable before a judge and jury in the County or Supreme Court.

The consequences of being reported to ACORN, which is a national policing initiative of the Commonwealth, State and Territory governments, will include your name being on a permanent register and forwarded to federal, state, or local law enforcement or regulatory agencies with jurisdiction, with prosecution the responsibility of the receiving agencies. The involved agencies include (but are not limited to) all Australian police agencies (including your local police department), the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission, the Australian Attorney-General’s Department, the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, and the Australian Communications and Media Authority.

Once the report is made, it will not be possible for us to halt the investigation. You must respond to this letter by phone or text message (to the phone number shown on this letter) no later than 48 hours after tracking shows that you have either received this letter or refused delivery of this letter. Refusal to accept this letter will not stand as a defence for failing to comply with the demands and timeframes contained herein.

(If you need a swift resolution, you could alternatively say "respond to this eBay message by responding via eBay's message system"; however, sending by eBay message doesn't have the gravitas or official status of sending via letter with recorded delivery - signature on delivery.)

The deadline for complete resolution from you is xx March 2019, by close of business.

No negotiation will be entertained and no extensions will be granted.

Yours faithfully,

[business name - or your name]❞

Links in which you might be interested:

Criminal Code Act 1955 (with particular reference to 134.1 Obtaining property by deception)

Sentencing Trends for Obtaining Property by Deception in the Higher Courts of Victoria 2011–12 to 20...

SACStat Higher Courts (you'll note that a very thorough majority of 62.7% of sentencing outcomes were imprisonment

NSW - "Obtain property belonging to another by deception" is the new offence in the amended Crimes Act.

Re: Interesting Chargeback Case - How to Proceed?

springyzone — Thu, 07 Mar 2019 06:09:59 GMT

Wish i could kudo that twice, countessa.

Re: Interesting Chargeback Case - How to Proceed?

clickbaitoz — Fri, 08 Mar 2019 02:23:31 GMT

sounds to me like the 'friend' is probably non existant & they have gotten an account/card in a false name or the name of a person who is deceased (happens alot) They maybe taken you're being reasonable with them as that you're a push over & they're going to get away with it.

I would play hardball with them & tell them you've been advised you should call the police because it sounds like you have both been the victim of online fraud. (play a little bit dumb, not blaming them & you've been advised sounds less 'attacking' than you thinking of the idea yourself), hopefully should sort them out quick smart.