topic Re: I just CANNOT win against Paypal!!! in Selling

I just CANNOT win against Paypal!!!

kitty-kat-kollection — Sat, 31 Aug 2019 14:46:13 GMT

I have posted before about some unfortunate scammers doing chargebacks who got away with my item AND my money due to Paypal siding with them.

Now, I sold an item to a buyer back in late March. Heard nothing for months so assumed the buyer was happy, but in late June, suddenly they lodged an "item not as described" dispute through Paypal.

SIGH. The item was lovely, perfect, brand new, and $250. The buyer claimed it was different to what they were expecting and wanted a refund. Hmmm...my detailed description and 12 photos weren't sufficiently accurate?

Anyway, so I was overseas at the time (from mid June to early August, in the UK. My store was in holiday mode). I responded to Paypal, saying that the item was as described, blah, blah.

Paypal said that they decided the buyer would receive a refund (WHY, I do not know), but only once I received my item posted back.

Ok. Sigh again. Since I was overseas, I would not know when, if, or in what condition, the item would be returned, depending how it was sent.

As it turned out, it was not delivered to my apartment building as normal (28 storeys, 120 units), but rather to the post office. When I arrived home, I had one collection card waiting for me, which was actually squashed to another item of mail, saying to collect the parcel by 26 July or it would be returned to sender. Kinda hard for me to have done that considering I was a 24 hour flight away at the time and not due home for another 2 weeks.

I had people collecting mail that was delivered to the building. Australia Post do not do mail holds for high rise buildings. There was no initial collection card from prior to that final urgent one even though the item had been sitting at the post office since early July.

Anyway. I told Paypal while I was still overseas that I was concerned that I would not receive my item back as I was away. They seemed not to grasp this concept and merely said once the item was "delivered", the $250 refund would be taken from my account. Which it was.

When I returned home and of course had not received the parcel, I looked at the tracking online and it had been returned to sender on 27 July and successfully delivered soon after. Great. So now the buyer had not only my item but my $250 too.

I thought, hmm...I insured this parcel for $250 with Aus Post when I sent it to the buyer. I spoke with them, but infuriatingly, they said that my extra cover of $250 only applied to MY parcel when initially sent to the buyer, and since the buyer did not take out any cover AND the parcel was successfully returned to them when it was unclaimed by me, that they could do no more at their end.

Um...excuse me? Am I supposed to FORCE a buyer to insure a parcel they return to me? Why is it MY responsibility and thus my DISADVANTAGE when THEY choose not to insure a $250 item? MY item in fact. Not theirs anymore.

Further, am I supposed to have a guard standing at my building's door, waiting to intercept my mail while I'm away, or a maid waiting at all times to collect my parcels or NON-EXISTENT collection cards?

Aus Post said they understand my frustration (thanks), and to contact the buyer to have them return the parcel again. Oh, fantastic. I'm sure that'll work out REALLY well. They'll either ignore me, deny ever receiving it back, or actually send it back ruined. OR they'll lodge some kind of claim with Aus Post for the parcel not being received and maybe receive the basic $50 plus cost of postage. Which they of course will keep. Plus MY item. And it IS mine as they ended up not paying a cent for it. Where is my $250?

So...back to Paypal I go. I lodge a complaint / case, advising what has happened and requesting they either reinstate my $250 since clearly the buyer has decided to keep the item, or to get the buyer to post it back to me since currently, through NO fault of my own, I have no item AND no $250.

Somehow I don't hold out much hope for a satisfactory response.

SIGH AGAIN.

Re: I just CANNOT win against Paypal!!!

kopenhagen5 — Sat, 31 Aug 2019 21:43:19 GMT

Unfortunately according to the rules, everyone has done everything correctly except for you not collecting the parcel.

And, perhaps the buyer is a scamming sod or unreasonable.

I would shoot a final polite message to the buyer explaining what happened and if they are nice people they will assist you in the return.

I know I would.

Re: I just CANNOT win against Paypal!!!

davewil1964 — Sat, 31 Aug 2019 23:51:05 GMT

Insurance only covers loss or damage, not non-collection, so it would have been pointless for the buyer to insure it anyway.

Unfortunately, when selling online there is an expectation that you will be able to manage your business even if away.

Re: I just CANNOT win against Paypal!!!

*tippy*toes* — Sun, 01 Sep 2019 01:21:29 GMT

Sounds like the buyer wanted an outfit for an event, and now has no further use for it. A very common thing for clothing sellers.

When I had to go away for a few weeks 3 years ago (Mr Tippy had to go to the city for surgery), I went to my PO and told them what was going on and asked could they please hold any parcels that may get delivered for me. Thankfully, they know me so were happy to oblige. If you do go away again, maybe go see your PO and ask them to hold anything for you. I know that won't help with this incident, but worth knowing for the future.

Re: I just CANNOT win against Paypal!!!

curraone — Sun, 01 Sep 2019 03:21:23 GMT

Hold mail - Australia Post

https://auspost.com.au › receiving › manage-your-mail › redirect-hold-mail

Australia Post can hold your mail for up to 12 months and deliver it when you ...

Re: I just CANNOT win against Paypal!!!

kitty-kat-kollection — Sun, 01 Sep 2019 06:25:58 GMT

Thank you! Annoyingly, Australia Post will not hold our mail, or anyone else's mail who lives in the building. They say there are too many apartments and they cannot sort the mail adequately in order to do individual holds.

At the time, I thought...hmmm. What!? If they can sort the mail adequately enough to deliver it to different apartments, why can't they HOLD it for apartments too?

Anyway...meh.

Re: I just CANNOT win against Paypal!!!

lm-entertainment — Sun, 01 Sep 2019 08:52:14 GMT

i'd definitely be talking to someone else and persisting further up the chain about mail holding. it's impossible that they won't provide that service to yourself - the size of the building being irrelevant. it's no different to them holding mail for a house in a residential block of the same amount of houses. they can't surely say that holding mail for any apartment block australia-wide is prohibited? unfortunately, it won't help in this case, but i think you need to speak with someone else regarding possible holds if you're away.

Re: I just CANNOT win against Paypal!!!

purplemon18 — Sun, 01 Sep 2019 09:46:46 GMT

Despite what someone at AP may have told you, the reason that AP no longer have your parcel is that they will only hold it for 2 weeks. If you want it held longer, they make you pay for it and you have to oragise it in advance. It is also likely that held mail is not actually kept at the local PO, but rather at the distribution centre. I don't really have any advice regarding getting your item back, other than what someone suggested and asking the buyer nicely.

It's just an unlucky set of circumstances combined with bad timing. Possibly also a less than honest buyer too.

Re: I just CANNOT win against Paypal!!!

snowbunnies2016 — Sun, 01 Sep 2019 11:59:21 GMT

Try ringing Paypal and explain the situation, that you were away, the item was returned to the buyer. Sometimes they will see sense and may offer a one way payment.

Re: I just CANNOT win against Paypal!!!

kitty-kat-kollection — Sun, 01 Sep 2019 13:14:56 GMT

Thank you again. That would be a good outcome if it can happen.

Re: I just CANNOT win against Paypal!!!

purplemon18 — Tue, 03 Sep 2019 01:19:11 GMT

@purplemon18 wrote:
Despite what someone at AP may have told you, the reason that AP no longer have your parcel is that they will only hold it for 2 weeks. If you want it held longer, they make you pay for it and you have to oragise it in advance. It is also likely that held mail is not actually kept at the local PO, but rather at the distribution centre. I don't really have any advice regarding getting your item back, other than what someone suggested and asking the buyer nicely.

It's just an unlucky set of circumstances combined with bad timing. Possibly also a less than honest buyer too.

I should clarify that I meant held mail that you pay for. Last time I had my mail held, every item had a yellow barcoded label stuck to it, which I assume was done at the distribution centre.

Re: I just CANNOT win against Paypal!!!

jellybirddesigns — Tue, 03 Sep 2019 02:47:39 GMT

Get yourself a post box at your local Aus Post outlet.

I would be totally paranoid about mail and ID theft in a high rise building, so just for basic security I would do this.

Then, if you're going to go away on holiday for more than a week, you can pay to organise a mail holding service at the post office.

The day after the service ends, everything that has been held back at the distribution centre will be delivered to the box.

Whilst I cannot speak for the intentions of the buyer, if they sent the parcel and you didn't have the proper procedures in place to collect it, it's hardly their fault it was returned. Paypal had no way of knowing you were not around to pick it up, so once it was marked as delivered, the buyer got their money back.

And yes, your original insurance would only have been for the initial sending of the package to the buyer. It has nothing to do with what the buyer is returning to you, which is a completely new package.

Re: I just CANNOT win against Paypal!!!

kitty-kat-kollection — Tue, 03 Sep 2019 03:56:16 GMT

I do get that, and it makes sense, but Paypal DID know I was overseas and I told them numerous times that I was not going to be able to confirm when or if the parcel was received, and if the item was in the same condition in which I had sent it.

Re: I just CANNOT win against Paypal!!!

brerrabbit585 — Tue, 03 Sep 2019 07:47:07 GMT

It doesn't matter if paypal knows you weren't home, it's still YOUR responsibility to make sure the parcel is collected and not left at the post office. You didn't follow the rules so you paid the price.

Re: I just CANNOT win against Paypal!!!

kitty-kat-kollection — Tue, 03 Sep 2019 09:29:53 GMT

True as that may be, but the buyer requested a refund based on dishonesty, received the refund and there was nothing I could do about it. Even if someone had been able to collect the item from the post office for me while I was away, that would've been a bit hard considering there was no collection card left until the urgent one appeared stuck between 2 other items of mail that had been collected for me. That card said to collect the item within 5 days. Not much notice for someone, even if they had seen it.

Re: I just CANNOT win against Paypal!!!

davewil1964 — Tue, 03 Sep 2019 11:58:07 GMT

A week seems to me to be a reasonable amount of time, if they'd seen it.

Re: I just CANNOT win against Paypal!!!

brerrabbit585 — Tue, 03 Sep 2019 12:47:19 GMT

Surely they had to upload the tracking number to the dispute. Without a tracking number they couldn't prove they'd sent it back, or that you'd received it, so as soon as that was supplied you should have been keeping an eye on the tracking on AP's website and organising someone to collect it within a reasonable time after it showed as being delivered.

They normally keep items for at least 10 business days so you would have had the days between posting and it arriving at the PO, and then another 14 calendar days to arrange for it to be picked up.

The buyer may have been dishonest and if you had something in an away message indicating you were overseas they may have deliberately chosen to return the item then, but by doing nothing about having it collected you handed them the item on a plate.

Re: I just CANNOT win against Paypal!!!

kitty-kat-kollection — Tue, 03 Sep 2019 14:10:35 GMT

That is very true. I did have my ebay store in holiday mode and said I was overseas for 7 weeks. Considering they bought this in mid MARCH and didn't do anything until mid JUNE when I was away...

Re: I just CANNOT win against Paypal!!!

springyzone — Tue, 03 Sep 2019 23:28:52 GMT

I think the basic problem here is something we can't change and that is that paypal allows claims for 'not as described' for 6 months.

I can understand having 'item not received' open for longer than a month, that's probably useful peace of mind for some overseas purchases.

But item not as described. Either an item is as described when you open it or it is not. It doesn't take 3 or 6 months of use to decide that or to notice it is 'different to what they were expecting'..

So basically, a 6 month window to make a claim is being interpreted I think (by some buyers) as a guarantee.

I've no idea what you actually sold but my suspicion is that something went wrong with it or maybe some part of it broke, hence the claim. If it is an item of clothing, maybe the fit wasn't as they expected (which is not your fault). But in any case, what you would get back is not going to be the pristine article you sent, that's my bet.

I don't believe paypal should allow 'not as described' claims after this amount of time, especially for claims it wasn't what they were expecting. But they do. I believe your buyer was cheeky to open a claim. But she did. Some people have a great sense of entitlement but it doesn't necessarily mean she was deliberately out to cheat you of both item and money. It sounds to me as if she just changed her mind and expected all her money back.

You can't control paypal policies, you can't control the fact some buyers have an over inflated sense of entitlement, but you can control how you respond as a business. None of this is the fault of Aust Post.

I know you were on holiday, but you knew a case had been opened and an item was being returned. All you can do in such situations is have someone in place-a friend or neighbour-who will do you favours if needed. Not just collect mail but also go to the PO in an emergency if they have to.

Hindsight is easy i know, but it would be best to have someone you have an email contact with or who is a facebook friend and you could word them up to expect a card from the PO and what to do.

Re: I just CANNOT win against Paypal!!!

kitty-kat-kollection — Wed, 04 Sep 2019 10:36:34 GMT

Thank you. All of this is 100% true and good to hear.