topic Re: Buyer refunds?? in Selling

Buyer refunds??

freyerwolf — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 06:01:26 GMT

Hi all, I sold some shoes through "buy it now" on Ebay.The buyer has since recieved the shoes and has demanded to send them back because they do not fit her.Am I obliged to refund?? I listed proper sizing & measurements in the listing.This is the first time I have had such request ,so thought I would check...Thanyou :0)

Re: Buyer refunds??

digital*ghost — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 06:13:57 GMT

If you did not state that you accept change of mind returns (generally indicated by selected 'No Returns' in the policy section), and your measurements were accurate, you're not obliged to refund.

From looking at your other listings, you have stated "7 day merchandise credit" on the ones I looked at, which is technically allowing change of mind returns even though you've qualified it with only for not as described - a buyer is entitled to a refund, not just store credit, if an item is not as described regardless of what you say in the return policy details, or whether you say you accept them, so the return policy is more to outline what you will or won't accept for instances of change of mind.

So if that was on the listing for the shoes, the buyer could expect it to be honoured.

Personally, and any technicalities aside, in this instance I would refund purchase price on return of the shoes in the same condition as when sent.

Re: Buyer refunds??

thesoulyearns — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 06:37:10 GMT

If you did not state that you accept change of mind returns (generally indicated by selected 'No Returns' in the policy section), and your measurements were accurate, you're not obliged to refund.

From looking at your other listings, you have stated "7 day merchandise credit" on the ones I looked at, which is technically allowing change of mind returns even though you've qualified it with only for not as described - a buyer is entitled to a refund, not just store credit, if an item is not as described regardless of what you say in the return policy details, or whether you say you accept them, so the return policy is more to outline what you will or won't accept for instances of change of mind.

So if that was on the listing for the shoes, the buyer could expect it to be honoured.

Personally, and any technicalities aside, in this instance I would refund purchase price on return of the shoes in the same condition as when sent.

I agree with your advice re: last paragraph but find the second paragraph confusing.

You state that the seller chose a feature that technically allowed change of mind returns but then stated that the return policy is to outline what the seller will or won't accept for instances of change of mind. Well, the seller stated that they will only accept it for not as described - which negates any other reasonable return situation, especially the one in this case. The buyer's claim is goes agsinst the sellers return policy in this case, so I don't see how they're eligable for a refund, provided the measurements were correct etc.

Someone else said this and I guess it's true... any return policy outside of those granted by eBay, is null and void. Makes you want to put No Returns Accepted for everything.

Re: Buyer refunds??

digital*ghost — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 06:55:32 GMT

What I'm trying to say is that the Return Policy details is meant to outline and clarify the terms of change of mind returns, not what happens if an item is not as described, as well as what will be provided for change of mind.

You can state No Returns on a listing, this doesn't negate the buyer's normal consumer rights for a refund if something is not as described - those rights are a given, therefore there doesn't need to be any specific terms outlined for them because they're already in place, that's why the return policy details can state things like that only merchandise credit will be provided, only within 7 days of receipt of goods etc etc, because it's to detail A) if you will accept change of mind returns in the first place, and B) what the buyer needs to do to be eligible to return the item.

Re: Buyer refunds??

thesoulyearns — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:04:36 GMT

... but the item was as described. If we're to trust the seller, the measurements were accurate. This isn't an item not as described return. Because it's a pair of shoes, there's no reason to not return this for a refund - the buyer gets nothing out lying... but what I'm trying to say is it seems increasingly obvious that the seller has little-to-no leverage in any case put against them once the buyer has the item in their hands.

This is one of the drawbacks of online selling... you have to put your trust that the buyer is legitimate... because you have no way of knowing what happened to the item once it's been posted. Tracking and Registered Post won't prevent an Item not Received claim, unless the signature was signed by the person that the eBay account is associated with. You can get a nextdoor neighbour to sign for it and then claim the neighbour threw it in the bin - and poof - the seller is automatically ordered to refund. Sorry to get all cynical... but there are plenty of ways dodgy buyers can fraud the system and make many sellers out of pocket, while they keep the item or use it for its purposes for free.

Re: Buyer refunds??

digital*ghost — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:24:04 GMT

I know it was as described - that makes it a change of mind return, which is why I've tried to explain why the buyer could still expect to be able to return if they looked at the listing to see if there was a return policy.

If a seller does not want to accept change of mind returns, they need to select No Returns Accepted.

Re: Buyer refunds??

digital*ghost — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:36:33 GMT

I'll try to claify this issue a little more.

Let's take the example of body jewellery.

A seller can not re-sell body jewellery that has been purchased due to health regulations, therefore you will find on most listings for earrings, belly rings, etc, a No Returns Accepted policy.

If a buyer purchases earrings, they can not return them for change of mind, but they still have the full right of refund if they are not as described. Whether the seller requires their return is up to the individual seller, and it completely outside of their return policy.

Also, consider this. In the future any listing that has a returns accepted policy will mean that a buyer doesn't even need to contact the seller in order to return an item (this system is already in place overseas - the buyer selects "Return This Item" from the dropdown menu next to the purchase in My eBay, gets the return address from eBay, and I assume the seller received an automated notification).

The reason that system can be in place is because it doesn't have anything to do with whether a buyer has a right to refund / return, it's an option provided by the seller and facilitated by eBay for consumer / seller convenience. If a listing had No Returns Accepted, that option would be disabled, but the buyer would still have a right to refund if an item isn't as described.

I hope that makes it easier to see what I'm trying to get at.

Re: Buyer refunds??

thesoulyearns — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:39:23 GMT

I know it was as described - that makes it a change of mind return, which is why I've tried to explain why the buyer could still expect to be able to return if they looked at the listing to see if there was a return policy.

If a seller does not want to accept change of mind returns, they need to select No Returns Accepted.

OK, I understand now. You're simply repeating what eBay says about return policies, e.g. that you have to accept returns for change of mind and/or incorrect purchase by choosing Returns Accepted - regardless of if you put further specifications in the policy. It's all outlined here:

http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/sell/your-return-policy.html

"If you accept returns for change of mind or incorrect choice, in the Additional Information section of the Sell Your Item form, take the following steps: Select Returns accepted."

Pays to do some homework... thanks, D*G. Good thing about coming here is that, when corrected, you can learn something.

Re: Buyer refunds??

thesoulyearns — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:59:25 GMT

I hope that makes it easier to see what I'm trying to get at.

Yes. Regardless of any return policy, if an item is not as described in the listing, the buyer is eligable for a refund. The only option the seller has is whether to accept change of mind returns for items that are as described. Again, it's putting trust in the buyer that they are honest with eBay/PP about an item being as described... alot of this is to do with trust... but you can understand why some sellers may not trust some buyer's and vice verca. I'd rather put No Returns Accepted and risk less buys than be out of pocket by a fraudster.

Re: Buyer refunds??

thesoulyearns — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:02:47 GMT

That last post was in regards to D*G's post. That's my text in her quote bubble... posted too much here today.

Re: Buyer refunds??

freyerwolf — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:25:12 GMT

Well thankyou for the info...off to change my new listings template to cover myself better in the future.I am happy to refund peeps ,but would like to be contacted in a nice manner if the problem is not my fault.This woman was rude!

Re: Buyer refunds??

davewil1964 — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:22:18 GMT

I've seen buyers complaining that a seller has a no return policy and they have been advised that a) that doesn't cover INAD, and b) to hit the back-button as the seller is a numpty.

Not wishing to appear to be a numpty to potential buyers, my return policy is that I only accept returns for INAD. I defy anybody to construe that that applies to change of mind.

Re: Buyer refunds??

digital*ghost — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 15:49:44 GMT

Dave... No offence, but saying you accept returns but only for INAD is - officially and technically - akin to offering COD and meaning COPU.

Yes, many people will interpret it the way you mean it....but it's still not technically correct, and that's the point I keep trying to make.

Re: Buyer refunds??

davewil1964 — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 17:20:12 GMT

The point I'm trying to make is that stating "No Returns" leads buyers to think that is what you mean. Not "No returns for change of mind". Most buyers are probably not legally qualified and tend not to check their rights until the stuff hits the rotary device. They just see "No Returns" and go elsewhere. Anecdotally.

I'll stick to my way, anyway. It works.

Re: Buyer refunds??

digital*ghost — Fri, 28 Sep 2012 02:16:20 GMT

I understood your point, but I disagree with what is understood from seeing, and the effect of displaying, the return policy.

But I'll drop the subject since I don't want to be like a dog with a bone. ;\

Re: Buyer refunds??

gigabean-au — Fri, 28 Sep 2012 03:08:20 GMT

You may say 'no refunds' however if a buyer is unhappy and you don't refund them you might end up with a neg instead (although you may end up with one anyway!)

Unfortunately as sellers we are pretty much in a hostage situation where buyers can control our feedback & even the most rude customer with no grounds for a refund have to be treated very carefully.

Re: Buyer refunds??

shoesonthegoau — Fri, 28 Sep 2012 03:14:58 GMT

Refund the shoes I sell shoes and I refund, I do have a small restocking fee. And the customer pays postage to send the shoes back. it is so hard to be accurate with measurements and fittings of shoes, so you need to be flexible, so many factors in shoes that is impossible to measure and be totally accurate. If you want to give your customer good customer service then refund her, minus initial postage and returne postage.