topic Re: Interesting Change of Mind return request in Selling

Interesting Change of Mind return request

jfmgray — Sat, 01 Feb 2020 01:32:02 GMT

A buyer of a used music CD has successfully lodged a change of mind return request stating on the request that he has "ripped the CD to his ipod nano so no longer needs it". I have COM returns accepted with buyer pays postage and he has provided eBay a tracking number for the retrun postage. I guess I will refund the purchace price if the item is returned in the same condition as sent but it just seems wrong that eBay automatically accept a change of mind request like this. Views would be appreciated.

The other interesting thing is the cost of his return trackable post would be more than the refund he will receive on the purchace price.

Re: Interesting Change of Mind return request

kopenhagen5 — Sat, 01 Feb 2020 01:40:42 GMT

Well if he has copied the cd onto the device, then he has purchased and is using the music regardless of needing the cd hence wouldn't qualify for a return.

That return I suspect is illegal in many ways including against eBay policy.

The cheek and stupidity of it astounds me.

I would call eBay during business hours.

Re: Interesting Change of Mind return request

twyngwyn — Sat, 01 Feb 2020 01:39:41 GMT

it's outright theft!!!

Re: Interesting Change of Mind return request

the4masters2013 — Sat, 01 Feb 2020 01:58:23 GMT

When you get the CD back, please remember to put this buyer on your blocked list. I wouldn't be surprised if he pulls the same stunt again.

Re: Interesting Change of Mind return request

bikeden — Sat, 01 Feb 2020 02:40:25 GMT

Consider changing your COM policy to manual not automatic. In this situation with that buyers reason I would decline the request with an appropriate response. He's simply scamming you and possibly other sellers to build a much cheaper music library... suggest you report him as well as eBay are losing their cut too and they won't like that either.

"You can only decline a return if the buyer is returning the item because they changed their mind, and your return policy stated you don't accept returns".

Re: Interesting Change of Mind return request

digital*ghost — Sat, 01 Feb 2020 03:04:26 GMT

@jfmgray wrote:

The other interesting thing is the cost of his return trackable post would be more than the refund he will receive on the purchace price.

Was it an eBay Plus purchase? If so, ebay are paying for the return costs and the buyer will receive a full refund (since only "free post" listings can qualify for Plus now).

Personal opinion? The buyer is a / an (insert preferred unpleasant noun here), and the fact that they are completely unashamed about what they're doing would be quite galling (it's the same as all the fashion buyers who wear something to an event, then want to return).

Unfortunately, change of mind returns mean the reason for the return is irrelevant, and by accepting returns, all COM return requests are automatically approved by eBay on your behalf, so the only way to stop people from abusing it is to not accept returns. 😞

I agree about reporting the buyer, though - this is a blatant abuse of the return system, because the buyer is effectively keeping the item - there are also copyright / licensing issues at play in this kind of situation.

Re: Interesting Change of Mind return request

cezm — Sat, 01 Feb 2020 03:39:48 GMT

@digital*ghost wrote:
Was it an eBay Plus purchase? If so, ebay are paying for the return costs and the buyer will receive a full refund (since only "free post" listings can qualify for Plus now).

I have Ebay plus and I am still purchasing items that are not free post - maybe the items were listed prior to this new rule

e.g. this purchased 26/1

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Kenji-Nagini-Short-Sleeve-Tee/392456980344?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=661453679212&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

EDIT: I see in the seller's info it says that Ebay may exempt sellers from one or more of the criteria at Ebay's discretion

Re: Interesting Change of Mind return request

go-tazz — Sat, 01 Feb 2020 03:59:02 GMT

@the4masters2013 wrote:
When you get the CD back, please remember to put this buyer on your blocked list. I wouldn't be surprised if he pulls the same stunt again.

Just put them on your following list so that their ID shows and others can put them on their Block buyers list.

I would also contact eBay and let them know that it's not a true change of mind return.

Re: Interesting Change of Mind return request

digital*ghost — Sat, 01 Feb 2020 04:01:26 GMT

@cezm wrote:

EDIT: I see in the seller's info it says that Ebay may exempt sellers from one or more of the criteria at Ebay's discretion

Probably just for larger sellers like the one in your link (they may even be subsidising the cost with eBay to get the badge on non-free post listings). It's definitely free post for the average seller / business, or at least AFAIK, as eBay are hardcore campaigning for sellers to have Plus listings at the moment (had an argument with a rep who called me to try and convince me I'm losing tons of sales because my items aren't free post and don't qualify for Plus and I know of several other sellers who got the same phone call).

Re: Interesting Change of Mind return request

jfmgray — Sat, 01 Feb 2020 10:46:08 GMT

@digital*ghost wrote:

"Was it an eBay Plus purchase? If so, ebay are paying for the return costs and the buyer will receive a full refund (since only "free post" listings can qualify for Plus now)".

Not an eBay Plus - only my new items get the badge. So he would have paid for return postage label which would cost more than the refund he will receive - go figure!!

Yes I will report him to eBay but I fully expect to refund once the item is returned in good order - no dramas there as I can relist for the same price. But hopefully eBay will taike some action against the buyer. BTW it was only his second purchase.

Re: Interesting Change of Mind return request

countessalmirena — Sat, 01 Feb 2020 13:20:58 GMT

@jfmgray,

This is a misuse of the returns system, and as such, I would suggest you do the following:

Report the buyer (direct link to report) as per the Report an issue with a buyer page; as this buyer is breaching eBay policy (Abusive buyer policy)

❝When to report a buyer

You should only report a buyer if you think they're violating our policies. Here are a few examples of when to report a buyer:

The buyer is demanding something that wasn't offered in the original listing
You believe the buyer is making a false claim
You believe the buyer is misusing eBay Money Back Guarantee or the returns system❞

❝Don't misuse returns

Not allowed

Returning an item other than the original item received
Using or damaging an item and then returning it❞

The buyer has very clearly used the CD. Their own statement (❝ripped the CD to his ipod nano so no longer needs it❞) is evidence of this. That's one of the points you need to make in the report.

Immediately after making the report, I would contact eBay via eBay's "Have us call you". Explain the situation, state that you have made a report using the Report a buyer option, but wanted to follow up as there is another aspect involved - and that is the legality issue. It is permissible for an individual to download tracks from a CD which they own, and transfer them to another device such as an iPod. However, if the individual sells that CD, loses that CD, gives away that CD or for some other reason no longer owns the CD, the right to retain the downloaded/ripped copy no longer applies. This is very clear in Australian copyright law.

(For the sake of simplicity, I'm not touching on fair use or special circumstances, but the general legislation.)

On the ARIA (Australian Recording Industry Association) website , under FAQ is stated:

❝I have bought a legitimate CD. Is it legal to make copies for my own personal use?

In the same way that buying a copy of a book doesn't give you ownership rights in the author's manuscript, the purchase of a copy of a CD doesn't mean that you own (and can do anything that you like with) the recording that is on that CD.

Under legislation passed in late 2006, you now have the right to make a copy of a legitimately purchased recording that you own (eg, a CD or digital file) for playing on different devices for your private and domestic use. For example, you can, for your private use:

copy recordings from your CD onto your iPod or MP3 player; and
copy legitimately acquired digital files onto a CD to play in your stereo.

You cannot:

sell, give away (except to family), distribute, perform in public, or broadcast the private copies;
make private copies from an illegitimate recording (eg. from a burnt CD or from peer to peer files); or
share private copies online. Uploading or distributing music via the internet without permission from the copyright owner will infringe copyright.❞

If eBay refund this buyer and allow him to return the CD to you, they are in effect putting you in the situation of having distributed music over which you have no copyright - and that is a criminal offence. You should point this out to the CS rep, with the utmost politeness, but letting your very natural horror and concern over this potential issue peep through. It would make eBay complicit to illegal distribution of copyrighted material.

It would certainly go against the spirit of eBay's Enabling duplication of copy-protected material policy, its Bootleg recordings policy. and Counterfeit item policy.

Re: Interesting Change of Mind return request

brerrabbit585 — Sat, 01 Feb 2020 15:26:39 GMT

I'd also suggest sending a message to the buyer saying it's illegal and if they continue to pursue a claim for a refund you'll be reporting them for copyright breach to the company that made the CD. That might help make them stop and think before doing the same thing to others.

Re: Interesting Change of Mind return request

digital*ghost — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 02:38:21 GMT

@jfmgray wrote:
@digital*ghost wrote:
"Was it an eBay Plus purchase? If so, ebay are paying for the return costs and the buyer will receive a full refund (since only "free post" listings can qualify for Plus now)".

Not an eBay Plus - only my new items get the badge. So he would have paid for return postage label which would cost more than the refund he will receive - go figure!!

How bizarre

Would low key love to know this buyer's reasoning / motivation (despite thinking their actions pretty reprehensible - I mean is the album not available on iTunes?, and given their actions, I doubt they'd be morally opposed to other means of acquiring an album digitally, so to go to this trouble seems really weird to me).

Re: Interesting Change of Mind return request

countessalmirena — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 15:34:42 GMT

Weird, isn't it?

I suppose it's possible that this buyer doesn't realise that simply HAVING owned the CD doesn't give him licence to retain the ripped wav or mp3 files.

I go to extraordinary lengths to get hold of legitimate copies of recordings for my collection. I'd been looking for some years for a particular CD, long out of print, by a French baritone. Weirdly, I found a copy in a small French music shop with s/h recordings... I paid less than I'd have been prepared to (although it was still not cheap)... and a friend of mine also came across the same CD only a little while later, on a rare CD website. (He'd put it in a wish list to be alerted when/if it became available.) He decided out of sheer kindness to buy it and send it to me anonymously with a letter offering obscure clues.

I keep one copy in my CD shelf unit (which my father made for me about 8 years ago - holds thousands of CDs and it's embarrassingly full) and one copy in the stack of CDs in my car. It's such a rare CD that I'm hanging onto both copies with gusto.

Re: Interesting Change of Mind return request

padi*0409 — Mon, 03 Feb 2020 00:13:44 GMT

"I keep one copy in my CD shelf unit (which my father made for me about 8 years ago - holds thousands of CDs and it's embarrassingly full) and one copy in the stack of CDs in my car. It's such a rare CD that I'm hanging onto both copies with gusto."

Ah now countess, if you have 2 stereo systems you could play them both at the same time and have a Quadraphonic exoerience with your rare CD's..................

.............cueing them could be a tad tricky though...............

Re: Interesting Change of Mind return request

eol-products — Mon, 03 Feb 2020 01:27:00 GMT

It's extremely hard to get them to sync.

Re: Interesting Change of Mind return request

jfmgray — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 06:23:13 GMT

@bikeden wrote:
Consider changing your COM policy to manual not automatic. In this situation with that buyers reason I would decline the request with an appropriate response. He's simply scamming you and possibly other sellers to build a much cheaper music library... suggest you report him as well as eBay are losing their cut too and they won't like that either.

"You can only decline a return if the buyer is returning the item because they changed their mind, and your return policy stated you don't accept returns".

OK thanks for that - I didn't know you could set COM returns to manual

Re: Interesting Change of Mind return request

jfmgray — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 06:35:11 GMT

Thanks all for you views. As always, eBay's processes to deal with issues such as these is poor. So I speak to customer support who (eventually) agree that the buyer's reason for COM return is not legitimate. They state that I should not have to refund should the item be returned to me (still waiting). BUT the only way to close this case to avoid me refunding is to CLOSE IN THE BUYER'S FAVOUR and eBay (not me) funds the refund to the buyer for the purchase price AND original postage price. eBay confirm that I will not receive a defect. I assert (very very strongly) that they are rewarding the buyer for his fraudalent actions and giving him all the encouragement he needs to do the same trick to the next seller (not me again as he is on my blocked list). They try to assure me they will also deal with the buyer's inappropriate actions - I remain unconvinced.

Re: Interesting Change of Mind return request

collect247 — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 06:38:57 GMT

I'd keep an eye out on your defect rate,I wouldn't trust anything a CS says they will do or not do.

Re: Interesting Change of Mind return request

jfmgray — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 07:18:13 GMT

Yes although their written closure message stated that there is no defect.