topic Re: fraudulent customer doing chargebacks in Selling

fraudulent customer doing chargebacks

laptopkieran — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 11:59:28 GMT

Hi, i have had a customer buy 8 items off me in separate transactions adding up to a total of $2910.00. Then two other sellers contacted me and told me that the buyer does chargebacks.

After checking my paypal, i noticed that for every transaction the buyer used a diffrent paypal account, and already has three "Unauthorised transaction" disputes open against me.

I sent Paypal and Ebay a email explaining what this buyer is doing to multiple sellers, and all i got back was a stupid email telling me to make sure that the money is in my paypal account before sending items...

So now i am lost of what to do.. so thought i would come to this forum and see if any experienced sellers could give me some suggestions on what to do next?.

I think Ebay should be getting the authorities onto the buyer, not giving him his money back.

Re: fraudulent customer doing chargebacks

*sparklz* — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 12:06:20 GMT

Did you not get any emails to advise of the charge backs?

Did you post via registered post to the address on the paypal payments?

If you have proof of delivery then that is you protection with paypal.

Never been through it but others that have can give a more accurate reply on how to fight t.

Re: fraudulent customer doing chargebacks

peternt2001 — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 13:48:08 GMT

i am not a seller, but someone brought some items from you and you must have an address for them to send the items.

if it was me i would be contacting the internet fraud division of the police, and giving them all the details of what is happening and what has happened so they can go and pay this person a visit.

Re: fraudulent customer doing chargebacks

phorum_junkie* — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 13:52:01 GMT

You either posted by a method qualifying for Paypal seller protection in which case you can successfully defend the chargebacks or you did not in which case you will have to refund the payments and take out civil proceedings against the buyer to try and get your money back.

If you used click & send, registered post, platinum express or eparcel then you are OK.

If there are other sellers involved then you should get together to report them for fraudulently obtaining goods.

Re: fraudulent customer doing chargebacks

viewmont1071 — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 18:45:03 GMT

If you do as completed listing search on the op you will find the sales were around the 6th October

The OP offered postage as FREE AusPost Parcel with tracking

OP did you send each separately or combine into one package?

If you did combine was it at the request of the buyer??

OP contact the online fraud squad immediately and ring paypal and ask to speak to a supervisor do not take NO for an answer.....

( If the other sellers can also recontact paypal about the username that will also help)

The very fact that the same ebay username paid with separate paypal acounts for each item is extremely suss.

Check your tracking details to see if the chargebacks you have received correlate with the items already delivered

phorum junkees quote below in italics is poppyock....

paypal in its sole discretion decides whether they will defend the chargeback on your behalf... In fact paypal states that "they can help YOU build a powerful defence

....... It does not matter how you posted the items........

do not even wait for that start defending it yourself now by collecting evidence for the ombudsman

.... The best evidence are the other sellers claims as it will show/emphasize paypals lack of due diligence to you as their customer

Re: fraudulent customer doing chargebacks

viewmont1071 — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 18:53:50 GMT

some links for you OP... the banks chargeback guides can help you work out the evidence you will nedd to defend the chargeback yourself

............ especially the advice re card not present transactions.

I guess some Einstein will comment that..... "those tips and requirements are for merchant accounts".....

Any card not present (moto) transaction will require the same evidence to successfully defend a chargeback regardless of who the FSP is

https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/security/sell-chargebackfaq

http://www.westpac.com.au/docs/pdf/bb/Chargeback_FAQ_2006.pdf

http://www.nab.com.au/wps/wcm/connect/377557804b9d6b779fcfdff1eeeae8e9/Credit_Crad_Fraud_Brochure.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=377557804b9d6b779fcfdff1eeeae8e9

Re: fraudulent customer doing chargebacks

viewmont1071 — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 19:09:20 GMT

If things really get nasty....... ask paypal through the ombudsman how many of the protocols they followed below to protect you as their consumer against a card not present chargeback ???

How to reduce Internet and MOTO fraud

Merchants can minimise the possibility of fraudulent purchases and chargebacks from Internet and MOTO transactions by implementing the following measures:

• Request the purchaser to provide the CVV2 (Visa) or CVC2 (MasterCard) three digit number located on the signature panel of the credit card. If the purchaser is not in possession of the card, it is unlikely they will know this number.

Request the name of the cardholder’s bank. Fraudsters who have compromised account details will not have this information. If the purchaser hesitates in advising the name of their bank, caution should be exercised.

• Request the purchaser to provide a fax copy of their driver’s license.

• Ensure the customer’s billing address and delivery address is consistent.

• Check the telephone book to verify address and phone numbers provided.

• Never forward goods to a Post Office Box.

• Obtain a signed receipt from the cardholder when the goods are delivered.

• In the case of orders for a large number of different goods, telephone the cardholder after the order is placed to confirm the order.

Also, have the purchaser read back all details of the order. Frequently, where an order is fraudulent, the purchaser will be unable to confirm these details, as they were ordering at random, with no record of what they ordered.

• Be suspicious where multiple cards are used for a single purchase.

• Don’t continue to attempt authorisation after receiving a decline.

• Exercise particular caution in relation to overseas orders.

Large orders should in all cases be held back for shipping while the above enquiries are made into the legitimacy of the purchaser.

Merchants should not ship goods until satisfied that

the purchase is legitimate.

Re: fraudulent customer doing chargebacks

viewmont1071 — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 20:13:22 GMT

lastly OP if you check this morning and some of the packages remain undelivered then you can request that they are returned to you before delivery citing possible internet/credit card fraud as the reason

This may alleviate any further possible loss for yet to be delivered items if you act quickly

see APs terms and conditions 18

http://auspost.com.au/statutorydocuments/generalpostalservices/frame.htm

18.1 A person who has lodged an article other than an express post article may apply to Australia Post to have the article withheld from delivery and returned to him.

18.4 No article, other than a parcel or a parcel post satchel, shall be returned to an applicant under this clause unless an authorised person determines -

18.4.1 that the applicant is the sender of the article and that:

(i) in the reasonable opinion of Australia Post there are special reasons for permitting the article to be withdrawn and returned;

you can also log into paypal and check, print and correlate your paypal summarys for each sale. There is much more detailed information regarding the sale.

Check the name at the top of the summary compared to the name given halfway down the pp summary

Re: fraudulent customer doing chargebacks

laptopkieran — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 22:37:54 GMT

Yeah i will prove that i sent the packages. But it's not just that i am worried about losing money. Ebay needs to stand up and stop this person from doing this to other sellers. Every time he sent a paypal payment it was from a different name, but all to the same adress. And two other sellers already gave me permission to give their usernames out to Ebay.

It would not be hard to work out what is going on if they actually looked into it.

Re: fraudulent customer doing chargebacks

peternt2001 — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 23:36:56 GMT

quite often if it is a scam, the person doing the scamming will have items posted to an address that they have somehow won the cooperation of the householder to forward on any items they recieve, sometimes along the lines of

( this seller will not post to my country so if i get them sent to you can you send them on to me and i will pay you for it )

so i would still involve the internet fraud squad as quick as you can, you have a delivery address that you can give them, and things take time to get the ball rolling, so the sooner you do it the sooner they can go knock on a door. and if you are lucky and it is a nigerian style scam, your goods will still be there and not forwarded on when the fraud squad knocks on the door.

Re: fraudulent customer doing chargebacks

aj111003 — Wed, 10 Oct 2012 03:57:55 GMT

You either posted by a method qualifying for Paypal seller protection in which case you can successfully defend the chargebacks or you did not in which case you will have to refund the payments and take out civil proceedings against the buyer to try and get your money back.

If you used click & send, registered post, platinum express or eparcel then you are OK.

PJ mentioned Paypal Seller Protection, PJ if you are around would appreciate if you could answer this one for me ....or anyone else who may know, does Paypal seller protection also cover using Parcel Post Plus Satchels which have a tracking number? Just Wondering?? thanks

Re: fraudulent customer doing chargebacks

phorum_junkie* — Wed, 10 Oct 2012 12:26:25 GMT

If you mean the red satchels with a tracking number then no they do not qualify for seller protection, they work just like the yellow express satchels. Even if they are lodged over the counter there is nothing from AP that has the buyers name and address on.

For protection you need to use registered post, click & send (lodged in at PO) platinum express, regular express parcel (not the satchels) or eparcel. The 5kg satchels used to qualify as you had a stamped slip with the name and address but I haven't bought one for years so have no idea if that is still the case.

Re: fraudulent customer doing chargebacks

viewmont1071 — Wed, 10 Oct 2012 21:32:52 GMT

If the AP receipt for any of their products has the buyers postcode and the date the item was sent then it qualifies for the seller protection policy

AS a minimum for proof of shipment for the paypal seller protection policy you require an receipt with the date the item was sent and the buyers postcode.

This information can easily be verified by following the links with the relevant info copied and pasted below and taken directly from paypals user agreement and policies.

It is integral that as a seller you understand why an AP product may or may not qualify the sale for seller protection policy acceptance

https://cms.paypal.com/au/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full&locale.x=en_AU#Schedule%201.%20PayPal%20Seller%20Protection%20Policy

ie 2c limitations on the seller protection policy> definition and interpretation of "proof of shipment" in Seller Protection Policy context. A link is supplied to paypals requirements with the minimum being buyer postcode and date of delivery to the carrier.

https://cms.paypal.com/au/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full&locale.x=en_AU#2.%20Definitions%20and%20interpretation

2. Limitations on the PayPal Seller Protection Policy

C. you do not provide Proof of Shipment or respond to our other requests for information in a timely manner

from definitions and interpretation

Proof of Shipment means the proof of shipment accepted by us as set out within the “Proof of Shipment” page on the Safety Advice section of our website;

https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/security/sell-shippingrecommendations

Buyers and sellers, at the very least, must provide documentation that includes the date the item was sent, plus one of:

    1 An official acceptance by the shipper, such as a postmark or online status (status that shows the item was delivered is also acceptable)
    2 The recipient's delivery address showing at least the state, city and postcode (or international equivalent)
     3 A receipt from Australia Post showing at least the recipient's suburb, city or postcode (or international equivalent)

Re: fraudulent customer doing chargebacks

viewmont1071 — Wed, 10 Oct 2012 21:39:58 GMT

So if you purchase a single bag and the AP receipt shows the date of delivery to carrier or the tracking information from that bag shows delivery to the buyers postcode and also was scanned in at the post office on presentation so that the date of delivery to the carrier is noted then the postal method qualifies for seller protection as per paypals user agreement and policies.

Paypal and ebay the obfuscation experts

Re: fraudulent customer doing chargebacks

viewmont1071 — Wed, 10 Oct 2012 22:15:53 GMT

However.......

if that same bag is not scanned in upon presentation or is scanned but the information (date) does not show (ie you cannot retreive it) on APs tracking site or if the package is last scanned at a postcode that is not the buyers ie. a larger sorting centre

......then that bag does not qualify for the seller protection policy.........

SIMPLE

ebay and paypal the obfuscation experts

Re: fraudulent customer doing chargebacks

aj111003 — Thu, 11 Oct 2012 05:05:52 GMT

Thank you Viewmont for the clarification.

Re: fraudulent customer doing chargebacks

lemmayj — Thu, 11 Oct 2012 05:47:03 GMT

I (on my other ID) experienced a similar scenario last year with a US buyer who bought $800 of goods from me and about $10,000 worth of goods from 10 other sellers, all non-US. Items were shipped to a US post box and the buyer claimed item not received against all his sellers.

There were three holds on my funds

1) paypal "invesigated" the transaction for a couple of weeks - I supplied my proof of postage and all was well

2) The buyer opened an ebay.com buyer protection case. I'd posted by express courier international which supplied the required online proof of delivery/signature. Paypal put a hold on the money again and released it after a couple of weeks.

3) The buyer did a credit card chargeback. I suspect he won this but paypal covered me with seller protection so they lost money, not me.

I talked to many of the other sellers: many had insufficient postal tracking to satisfy ebay.com seller protection requirements.

They deregistered him from ebay fairly quickly (by ebay standards), about 2 months after he started the INRs.

I notice the OP's buyer is in Germany. This has the potential to make things more difficult if he was logged into ebay.de when he purchased and tries to use ebay Germany buyer protection rather than paypal protection. I'm not sure of the fine details of the German policy (since it's on the German ebay site in German), but be aware that paypal Australia won't cover you for claims via German ebay. You'd need to satisfy the seller protection conditions specific to ebay Germany.

Hopefully the buyer will stick with the credit card unauthorised use chargeback, which is dealt with by paypal Australia, not ebay.de.

Re: fraudulent customer doing chargebacks

laptopkieran — Thu, 11 Oct 2012 22:57:58 GMT

They said i have 7 days to respond. Then after 4 days they closed one case for $660.00 and gave him the money back. Then they sent me an email saying "Thanks for your quick response about the following transaction". Yet i did not respond to the transaction...

So i will try ring them today about that one.

And he has done it to more sellers now. I don't know why they will not ban him. Also another user on Ebay from germany bought the same items from me on the same day, i looked at his feedback, and he is doing the same thing on that account to other sellers.

Re: fraudulent customer doing chargebacks

phorum_junkie* — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 09:48:10 GMT

For something worth $660 presumably you sent it registered post with extra cover in which case all you needed to do was fax Paypal a copy of the reg post lodgement form.

Re: fraudulent customer doing chargebacks

laptopkieran — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:29:36 GMT

Does not matter the value... i had 7 days to respond. And yes i have been on the phone to paypal today. I am faxing them everything tomorrow morning. They said i should be able to get most of the money back. I asked why some of the cases have been closed early, and i did not get a real answer other then then telling me that the buyer is setting him self up by leaving a paper trail.

So in the end, my prospective is dont send ebay/paypal emails or you get irrelevant messages back. After talking to ebay today they put me through to paypal. Paypal said they could see 4 cases open and gave me the details for faxing them the receipt. So, so far i have probably lost $1500.00 + which i will not be giving back to paypal. I had 7 days to repsond... that is their fault if they close the case early without me responding.