topic Re: Being scammed by a buyer in Selling

Being scammed by a buyer

mastersoftheshoeniverse — Fri, 08 Jan 2021 11:18:20 GMT

I need advice in dealing with a buyer who is running a scam on me.

About a week before Christmas I sold a pair of Nikes (new, with box) to a buyer, who after receiving them, immediately initiated a return, demanding his money back and refusing to send the shoes back (he said they were being held "as evidence"). To make it spicier he added some abuse and called me every name he could think of.

My selling account has nearly 700 feedbacks with no negative except for the feedback this buyer decided to leave.

I uploaded a receipt from the retail store where the Nikes were purchased, to the return, which the buyer predictably rejected and continued to demand his money back without sending back the item.

Contacting ebay has been unhelpful. They advised me to purchase and upload a shipping label to the return, which I did, and the buyer has sent me an empty box. I haven't opened it, but can feel it's just an empty box.

Can anyone advise my next move?

Thanks in advance!

Re: Being scammed by a buyer

countessalmirena — Fri, 08 Jan 2021 11:28:22 GMT

Go to your local police station. Explain that you have just received back what you suspect is an empty box. Ask the police officer to witness your opening it, and if it is empty, to make a statement to that effect. You can try asking the police officer to open a case number in respect of this, primarily so that you have evidence to present to eBay.

Alternatively, ask an Australia Post employee to be your witness.

A statutory declaration should be the outcome, wherein the witness can state that the box was untampered with and opened in their presence, and the contents were xxxxx.

Contact eBay using the chat facility, and explain that you have a Stat Dec from a police officer and a case file number. Explain that you would like to upload those and to have the buyer's claim rejected as a result.

Make certain that you have all of your ducks in a row before you contact eBay, though. Have all of your evidence to hand, and have a clear outline of what has happened and what you want. Be polite and courteoius throughout.

You can make a complaint to ACSC using ReportCyber as well.

Re: Being scammed by a buyer

lumikgroup — Sat, 09 Jan 2021 00:50:42 GMT

@countessalmirena wrote:
Go to your local police station. Explain that you have just received back what you suspect is an empty box. Ask the police officer to witness your opening it, and if it is empty, to make a statement to that effect. You can try asking the police officer to open a case number in respect of this, primarily so that you have evidence to present to eBay.

Alternatively, ask an Australia Post employee to be your witness.

A statutory declaration should be the outcome, wherein the witness can state that the box was untampered with and opened in their presence, and the contents were xxxxx.

Contact eBay using the chat facility, and explain that you have a Stat Dec from a police officer and a case file number. Explain that you would like to upload those and to have the buyer's claim rejected as a result.

Make certain that you have all of your ducks in a row before you contact eBay, though. Have all of your evidence to hand, and have a clear outline of what has happened and what you want. Be polite and courteoius throughout.

You can make a complaint to ACSC using ReportCyber as well.

that would be just a waste of time - Police will do absolutly noting, so is eBay

only option you have is take the buyer to court, like VCAT, will cost you $60, you can do it online, you will win 100% and get full refund plus court costs

Also ask in court to get a letter to ebay to get the feedback removed

Re: Being scammed by a buyer

mastersoftheshoeniverse — Sat, 09 Jan 2021 02:02:54 GMT

Thanks for the response. How do you know I'll win?

Re: Being scammed by a buyer

davewil1964 — Sat, 09 Jan 2021 02:09:29 GMT

I would go with the countess' suggestion first.

There have certainly been instances in the past where her suggestions have worked, so it would be my first choice. Small claims court can always be held as a backup.

Re: Being scammed by a buyer

*tippy*toes* — Sat, 09 Jan 2021 14:23:12 GMT

@lumikgroup wrote:
@countessalmirena wrote:
Go to your local police station. Explain that you have just received back what you suspect is an empty box. Ask the police officer to witness your opening it, and if it is empty, to make a statement to that effect. You can try asking the police officer to open a case number in respect of this, primarily so that you have evidence to present to eBay.

Alternatively, ask an Australia Post employee to be your witness.

A statutory declaration should be the outcome, wherein the witness can state that the box was untampered with and opened in their presence, and the contents were xxxxx.

Contact eBay using the chat facility, and explain that you have a Stat Dec from a police officer and a case file number. Explain that you would like to upload those and to have the buyer's claim rejected as a result.

Make certain that you have all of your ducks in a row before you contact eBay, though. Have all of your evidence to hand, and have a clear outline of what has happened and what you want. Be polite and courteoius throughout.

You can make a complaint to ACSC using ReportCyber as well.
that would be just a waste of time - Police will do absolutly noting, so is eBay
only option you have is take the buyer to court, like VCAT, will cost you $60, you can do it online, you will win 100% and get full refund plus court costs
Also ask in court to get a letter to ebay to get the feedback removed

As someone who got dragged through Small Claims by a buyer, I can tell you with absolute certainty, that any monies can not be forced to be paid. I won the case because the buyer was in idiot. They were ordered to pay all costs. They paid nothing. My solicitor said while they have been told they have to pay, if they choose not to, then there's not a lot that can be done, other than going back to court, which then costs more money.

As eBay runs on NSW law, going to VCAT is a complete waste of time.

Re: Being scammed by a buyer

mastersoftheshoeniverse — Sun, 10 Jan 2021 14:09:26 GMT

Thank you everyone for taking the time to respond.

I don't think the police are likely to get involved in something this small-scale, even if the buyer did essentially defraud me (and Australia Post to some extent). With COVID, I think their attention is elsewhere.

And I can definitely appreciate going down the VCAT route, but I think the cost-benefit ratio hinted at by *tippy*toes* probably makes it difficult to justify, especially when I could just put that time and money in to selling more items.

I may have come up with a solution, and I'll keep everyone apprised just in case it has value for anyone in the future who is being scammed the same way I am.

Thanks again everyone for being so cool to respond.

Re: Being scammed by a buyer

springyzone — Mon, 11 Jan 2021 22:50:27 GMT

I think at least it is worth a shot at opening it at a post office. Choose one locally that is not all that busy and go in at a quiet time, then they may be more inclined to help you or be a witness.

Then upload your stat dec and comments to the dispute. Do as countess suggested.

It may be that going to VCAT is a wase of time but the fact you covered yourself with the box opening and stat dec plus the threat of VCAT may be enough to make the buyer back down.

Re: Being scammed by a buyer

countessalmirena — Tue, 12 Jan 2021 05:44:24 GMT

The police are there for this sort of criminal behaviour just as they are there for carjacking, burglary and homicide.

speechnot_76, if you go via civil court, you will need to present evidence that the buyer returned an empty box. Even with the lower burden of proof, without evidence that the box was empty upon arrival to you you would be making it difficult to reach even the level of "more likely than not". The judge would wonder (as well he/she might) why you did not open the box in the presence of a disinterested witness of sufficient official stature that his/her word will be considered compelling.

You lose nothing by going to the police or to an Australia Post shop, and asking for an authorised person to examine the untampered-with box, witness the opening of the box, and making a statement about the contents.

It also means a much quicker resolution than hanging around for a date in Small Claims. You take home the Stat Dec (and case number if you make a report), scan the Stat Dec and save as a PDF, get onto Live Chat, explain that you have this information and that you are more than happy to upload it immediately, do so to the email address given (or however the CS rep asks for the information), provide also the case number if you have one, and ask for the buyer's claim to be closed on the basis of that information.

From my own perspective...

... I vehemently disagree with letting people get away with thieving or cheating behaviour because it seems too hard or too much trouble. That only encourages people who behave badly to continue down that path.

Re: Being scammed by a buyer

davewil1964 — Tue, 12 Jan 2021 05:52:19 GMT

@countessalmirena wrote:
The police are there for this sort of criminal behaviour just as they are there for carjacking, burglary and homicide.

speechnot_76, if you go via civil court, you will need to present evidence that the buyer returned an empty box. Even with the lower burden of proof, without evidence that the box was empty upon arrival to you you would be making it difficult to reach even the level of "more likely than not". The judge would wonder (as well he/she might) why you did not open the box in the presence of a disinterested witness of sufficient official stature that his/her word will be considered compelling.

You lose nothing by going to the police or to an Australia Post shop, and asking for an authorised person to examine the untampered-with box, witness the opening of the box, and making a statement about the contents.

It also means a much quicker resolution than hanging around for a date in Small Claims. You take home the Stat Dec (and case number if you make a report), scan the Stat Dec and save as a PDF, get onto Live Chat, explain that you have this information and that you are more than happy to upload it immediately, do so to the email address given (or however the CS rep asks for the information), provide also the case number if you have one, and ask for the buyer's claim to be closed on the basis of that information.

From my own perspective...

... I vehemently disagree with letting people get away with thieving or cheating behaviour because it seems too hard or too much trouble. That only encourages people who behave badly to continue down that path.

Well said. Too many people take the 'easy' path and these thieves are then empowered to continue their thievery.

Of course, the OP could well be rich enough to write the loss off. They don't seem interested in upholding the interests of society in general if it costs them any effort.

Re: Being scammed by a buyer

mastersoftheshoeniverse — Tue, 12 Jan 2021 18:18:20 GMT

Well said. Too many people take the 'easy' path and these thieves are then empowered to continue their thievery.

Of course, the OP could well be rich enough to write the loss off. They don't seem interested in upholding the interests of society in general if it costs them any effort.

davewil1964, that is a staggeringly presumptuous thing to say.

I spent hours - hours - pleading with ebay frontline staff, supervisors and managers in live chats, trying to get them to hear my side of the story. I fought tooth and nail to get ebay to acknowledge the incredibly sus nature of this buyer's claim, including his ridiculous demands that I refund him without his sending the item back.

At every turn they ignored my attempts to get them to see reason. For any sellers reading this in the future, here is a list of things ebay will not care about:

your perfect feedback score
the great feedback comments you receive
your very very very low transaction defect rate
your well-formatted and numerous item images
your attention to detail with buyers, including going over and above whenever you can
your calm, professional tone with demanding, obnoxious buyers who are obviously scammers

Ebay will instead robotically enable even the worst buyers. Do you have 50,000 100% positive feedbacks and a buyer claiming he didn't receive his item because he saw it beamed up by aliens? They will be given the benefit of the doubt. And ebay may even reflexively turn on you with the bloodlust normally reserved for lions eyeing wounded antelopes or something.

In my case ebay auto-removed my listing, denied my request to relist the item, and informed me that if I tried action would be taken against my account. Did seven people already buy the item without complaint? Doesn't matter.

If I seemed indifferent, it wasn't because I wasn't interested "in upholding the interests of society in general", which by the way is a smug, detached way of looking down your nose when you haven't been through this fresh hell yourself.

My point about not going to the police wasn't for lack of interest in seeing off this ill-mannered reprobate's third-rate clownish attempts to scam me, it was about having head-butted a wall for so long that I thought: maybe sometimes you just don't win. Maybe the bad guy prevails and instead of whinging about it, perhaps I should just swallow that rising tide of bile and just get back to work. My bad if it didn't meet your standards of being the gatekeeper of ebay justice.

countessalmirena, I too hate the idea of enabling thieves, and I hated even more the thought that this buyer had targeted me and might actually win, thereby emboldening him to try again with some other seller. But I certainly didn't take the "easy path", as davewil1964 implied.

As it turned out, the bad guy doesn't always prevail. Ebay decided in my favour. If I can find a way to edit my original post, I'll explain how it happened, for the benefit of anyone else who has to go through this.

Re: Being scammed by a buyer

mastersoftheshoeniverse — Tue, 12 Jan 2021 18:43:30 GMT

Okay so it won't let me edit my initial post, but here is what led to ebay deciding in my favour.

Firstly, upon informing ebay that the buyer sent back an empty box, I was asked to sign a stat dec affirming that I received an empty box. They e-mailed it to me, and I had to get it witnessed by a JP, take a pic of it, and then upload it to a link in the e-mail.

Separately, I contacted Australia Post via live chat, gave the tracking number, explained the situation and asked if the item was weighed whilst in transit back to me. They said yes, and so I gave the other tracking number and asked if it was weighed whilst in transit to the buyer.

Long story short, there was a massive difference in weight between the item I sent, and the item the buyer returned, proving that the buyer either sent me an empty box, or something very very light - but not the original item.

Australia Post was nice enough to put this information along with the tracking numbers, in a tidy little e-mail to me. I took a screenshot and uploaded it with the stat dec, and a couple hours later this nightmare was over.

I do not know for certain what role the Australia Post information played in ebay's decision, because they don't exactly debrief you. Maybe they just wanted the statutory declaration and would have decided in my favour regardless when they received it.

But they explictly said that the buyer was not refunded, and they removed his feedback. So some common sense won out.

I still haven't opened the box and I'm thinking about taking it to the police and seeing if they have any interest in pursuing the matter. My gut says no, but it might be worth a try. As previously mentioned, I don't want this buyer trying this scam with some other seller.

Thank you again everyone for your input. It's nice to know there are people so invested in helping others.

Re: Being scammed by a buyer

lyndal1838 — Tue, 12 Jan 2021 21:41:11 GMT

@mastersoftheshoeniverse wrote:
Okay so it won't let me edit my initial post, but here is what led to ebay deciding in my favour.
For future eference.....you only have 5 minutes to edit a post before it is fixed in stone.

Firstly, upon informing ebay that the buyer sent back an empty box, I was asked to sign a stat dec affirming that I received an empty box. They e-mailed it to me, and I had to get it witnessed by a JP, take a pic of it, and then upload it to a link in the e-mail.
You were lucky.....generally ebay leaves it to you to find the Stat Dec form. Again, for future reference, they are available online at several sites....Google is your friend in this case.

Separately, I contacted Australia Post via live chat, gave the tracking number, explained the situation and asked if the item was weighed whilst in transit back to me. They said yes, and so I gave the other tracking number and asked if it was weighed whilst in transit to the buyer.

Long story short, there was a massive difference in weight between the item I sent, and the item the buyer returned, proving that the buyer either sent me an empty box, or something very very light - but not the original item.
AP should be your first port of call when needing to compare 2 parcels....they are usually very helpful if you approach them politely. Some people think confrontation is the only way to go....it isn't.

Australia Post was nice enough to put this information along with the tracking numbers, in a tidy little e-mail to me. I took a screenshot and uploaded it with the stat dec, and a couple hours later this nightmare was over.

I do not know for certain what role the Australia Post information played in ebay's decision, because they don't exactly debrief you. Maybe they just wanted the statutory declaration and would have decided in my favour regardless when they received it.
It never hurts to give that little extra information....shows that you have done your research.

But they explictly said that the buyer was not refunded, and they removed his feedback. So some common sense won out.
Not just common sense.....you had all the proof needed to take it further if ebay did not come to the party.

I still haven't opened the box and I'm thinking about taking it to the police and seeing if they have any interest in pursuing the matter. My gut says no, but it might be worth a try. As previously mentioned, I don't want this buyer trying this scam with some other seller.
I am not sure that the police would be interested as you have not lost anything. You might try Scamwatch or similar.....just to get the buyer's name on their radar. They cannot do anything since you have not lost anything.

Thank you again everyone for your input. It's nice to know there are people so invested in helping others.

Re: Being scammed by a buyer

springyzone — Tue, 12 Jan 2021 23:12:59 GMT

@mastersoftheshoeniverse wrote:
Well said. Too many people take the 'easy' path and these thieves are then empowered to continue their thievery.

Of course, the OP could well be rich enough to write the loss off. They don't seem interested in upholding the interests of society in general if it costs them any effort.

I spent hours - hours - pleading with ebay frontline staff, supervisors and managers in live chats, trying to get them to hear my side of the story. I fought tooth and nail to get ebay to acknowledge the incredibly sus nature of this buyer's claim, including his ridiculous demands that I refund him without his sending the item back.

At every turn they ignored my attempts to get them to see reason. For any sellers reading this in the future, here is a list of things ebay will not care about:

your perfect feedback score
the great feedback comments you receive
your very very very low transaction defect rate
your well-formatted and numerous item images
your attention to detail with buyers, including going over and above whenever you can
your calm, professional tone with demanding, obnoxious buyers who are obviously scammers

Ebay will instead robotically enable even the worst buyers. Do you have 50,000 100% positive feedbacks and a buyer claiming he didn't receive his item because he saw it beamed up by aliens? They will be given the benefit of the doubt. And ebay may even reflexively turn on you with the bloodlust normally reserved for lions eyeing wounded antelopes or something.

As it turned out, the bad guy doesn't always prevail. Ebay decided in my favour. If I can find a way to edit my original post, I'll explain how it happened, for the benefit of anyone else who has to go through this.

Firstly, I am so glad you won out against that scammer. That is great news and it also shows, I think, that you did take the time to collect the evidence to prove the scam.

In regard to your comments above, where you say ebay takes no account of those things such as perfect feedback etc, I am not tryin to be an ebay apologist here but in a way, they can't let those things determine a decision. Every case has to be decided in its own merits. I agree that if you have a seller with such a long and strong good record, you'd think a rep would be keeping that at the back of their mind but they would still need some supporting evidence of a scam, which is, I think, why countess was suggesting a parcel opened in front of reliable witnesses was one option.

I think in one way, you were very lucky. You had a scammer who sent back an empty box and so the weights of both parcels were very clearly different. Had the scammer put something in the box to make the weight more feasible, it would have been a lot harder for you to prove a scam as you would probably have opened it at home, unsuspecting. I am glad it worked out for you.

Re: Being scammed by a buyer

*tippy*toes* — Tue, 12 Jan 2021 23:37:22 GMT

That really is fantastic news! It''s so rare for the seller to win. Just be aware though, the buyer is going to be mighty miffed that their plan didn't work out as it should have. They could very easily open a PayPal dispute. Make sure you keep everything you have now for another 6 months, as a PayPal dispute can be opened up to 180 days from the sale date.

Re: Being scammed by a buyer

countessalmirena — Wed, 13 Jan 2021 01:46:39 GMT

That's truly good to hear.

The pivotal point is always going to be having independent evidence, and the weight of the parcel proved to be exactly the right sort of information. eBay will also often look favourably upon a properly witnessed Stat Dec as the penalties for making a false declaration in Australia are serious.

As has been said, there really is no purpose in pleading with eBay on the basis of good feedback, good seller rating, etc. There are major sellers who are treated differently, of course, with laurels and champagne - but let's not sidetrack into that. The average seller with a good reputation and history is very very very unlikely to sway eBay CS reps by begging them with "But look at my excellent feedback and great customer service history! Believe me on the basis of those!" There are so many sellers who could make a special pleading that in effect there is no special pleading.

eBay's risk mitigation strategy involves by default not accepting a seller's fervent word, excellent feedback, admirable customer service, etc., if a problem appears to arise. The strategy is not based upon what is fair for the seller, only upon what lowers the overall risk for eBay. If sellers simply focus upon providing the sort of evidence that is disinterested, unambiguous and able to be produced as independent evidence, that is much more likely to resolve an issue in the seller's favour.

Thankfully, you were able to follow through with the evidence as requested by eBay. I'm truly sorry you had a distressing and futile time with eBay in terms of trying to persuade them to accept your word; at least you now know that's not a way you'll waste your time if anything like this happens again! Just think in terms of getting your evidence ready before you contact eBay, and provide it... and it should be much less stressful.

(I am glad that your dishonest buyer did not end up with an undeserved refund and a feeling of smug satisfaction at having got his/her way!)

TYPES OF EVIDENCE THAT TEND TO BE ACCEPTED

Your own statutory declaration
A statutory declaration by an independent (esp. authoritative) witness
Independently verifiable information such as parcel weight
Verifiable information from a third party considered to be authoritative, upon letterhead (or in form that can be verified, such as forwarded email from authoritative source).

Excellent result. I hope you've treated yourself to something decadent and delicious as an indulgent reward for getting this result.

(For some perspective... There are quite a number of responders here who have seen far far far too many sellers or buyers in a similar position - i.e., being faced with a loss (and sometimes also the knowledge that the other party to the transaction is gaining something through deception) when the right action can stop that result dead in the water. It can be frustrating to see advice that will more than likely get a good result simply ignored, or argued away, or diverted in some manner... and the overriding response from posters ignoring the advice tends to be "too hard" (or simply never coming back to post with an update, so that no one knows whether the advice was acted upon and whether the outcome was good). In all sincerity, it's always worth considering the responses from experienced and knowledgeable posters on this forum, and if you take on board the advice, it can end up saving you time and money and give a resounding sense of satisfaction when a fraudulent attempt fails!)

Re: Being scammed by a buyer

mic-s-korea — Thu, 14 Jan 2021 09:21:33 GMT

I no longer will sell anything high priced on E-bay. Nothing that I'm not prepared to wear the loss if it comes to that. It's not going to happen but E-bay needs to have a way which allows sellers of higher priced items (or wholesale lots) to screen potential buyers and select if they sell to them or not (set sale). Some Japanese platforms allow this. Ebay has pretty much sunk in Japan. Yahoo Japan is the most popular sales site for my line of products ... and has a better set up IMO. A lot of people I used to buy from have dropped out off Ebay altogether and I wonder if being scammed was the inflection point.

Re: Being scammed by a buyer

davewil1964 — Thu, 14 Jan 2021 09:25:54 GMT

Given you are selling Asian products, and your ID, selling on eBay Australia, regardless of where you're based, is always going to have issues.

I would never sell high-priced items here, except to Australian buyers. I've not been around as long as you, but I certainly know the pitfalls.

I'm not sure how Japan has any real link to Australia, though. We send them raw materials, they send us back cars.

Re: Being scammed by a buyer

mic-s-korea — Thu, 14 Jan 2021 11:48:29 GMT

Thanks for the reply.

Australian E-bay actually doesn't offer the seller protection that U.S. sellers on U.S. E-bay have, as I understand it.

I was just pointing out that although there are a lot of Chinese merchants selling on E-bay/E-bay Australia ... many people might not realize that E-bay has a pretty small presence in China/South Korea/Japan ... it either never made inroads in this part of the world or did in Japan and was rejected by sellers (as I understand it it was pretty much sellers who shifted to alternatives, so it folded there). Korea too ... E-bay is trying to offload its proxy site in Korea (Auction) right now (it lost out to G-market). And some of the platforms in East Asia - Yahoo Japan, etc, I actually think have a better system for sellers than E-bay does. There's also no wholesale on E-bay ... no-one is ever going to wholesale on a site with no seller protections in place.

Re: Being scammed by a buyer

danieh_6 — Fri, 15 Jan 2021 06:13:17 GMT

How is you are saying U.S. sellers have different protections to Australia?