topic Re: Wgere does my responsability end once an item is posted? in Selling

Wgere does my responsability end once an item is posted?

jetboy2525 — Tue, 08 Jan 2013 05:43:37 GMT

Over the Christmas period I have had a few inidents with customers not receiving their item. Admittingly most were correct, as Australia Post was so inundated with work. However, I want to know how this is that my fault?? But all buyers have been either refunded, had their item/s resent or both.

Buyers are leaving negative feedback due to the delay with Aus Post. I do not think hat this is in anyway fare!!!!!

Also, I had a buyer dispute a transaction through Pay Pal, saying that she had not received her item. Even though I provided proof to Pay Pal that her item & 16 others were posted on a paricular date Pay Pal still found in her favour and refunded her the money?? So she probably has the game & her money back now???

Surel there has to be a point, legally where I am no longer responsible for the item?

As I have FREE domestic postage, most people choose that. Which has no tracking.

As stated in my Terms & Conditions: "Registered Post or Express Post option’s ensures shipment to your door with tracking and upto $150** (**registered post only) value insurance cover - please use this option as we can't be held responsible for items lost, stolen or damaged in the post."

Seriously, Pay Pal s a joke, do I have to have it to sell through my store on ebay?

Re: Wgere does my responsability end once an item is posted?

dylan11235813 — Tue, 08 Jan 2013 05:54:56 GMT

for paypel you just need to have proof that is was posted to the address.

You can offer paymate instead of paypal.

It is also against ebay policy to state in your listing : "we can't be held responsible for items lost, stolen or damaged in the post."

Re: Wgere does my responsability end once an item is posted?

flashback_deals — Tue, 08 Jan 2013 05:59:30 GMT

I only had one strage incident over christmas

Sent a few items in a Click & Send satchel, buyer received it fine

The ssecond one got returned to me - arrived by Registered Post and the same address 2 days later but was returned to me as a wrong address. So i checked my Sold list and it was sent to the correct address.

Strange how the 2nd one arrived 2 days later and was marked as a wrong address, must have got booted out in those 2 days lol. i have tried contacting the buyer and aint heard back

Re: Wgere does my responsability end once an item is posted?

***super_nova*** — Tue, 08 Jan 2013 06:05:35 GMT

To win PP case you need proof of posting with on line trackable means. Just showing receipt that you posted 25 parcels means nothing; they may have been Xmas presents to your family.

Seriously, Pay Pal s a joke, do I have to have it to sell through my store on ebay?

You have to offer PayPal, Paymate or CC merchant facility, and they all will demand the same level of service that PP does.

Re: Wgere does my responsability end once an item is posted?

davewil1964 — Tue, 08 Jan 2013 06:08:43 GMT

For Paypal's purposes you are responsible until the buyer receives the item.

Paypal will not entertain any disclaimers to the contrary. Registered (which provides $100 cover, not $150) is YOUR protection; Paypal is the buyer's. If you want to price yourself out of the market, charge registered for everything.

Or, put 10c in a jar every time you post something unregistered and pay any consequent refunds out of that. You will have money left at the end of the year.

How do you post your 'free' postage items? If as parcels, try looking at Click and Send satchels. They provide Paypal acceptable tracking, are cheaper than Parcel Post Plus, and only marginally more than pack yourself parcels.

Re: Wgere does my responsability end once an item is posted?

wishuponastarcelebrationsandgifts — Tue, 08 Jan 2013 09:57:37 GMT

Sending via regular mail does not offer protection. As has been stated you need to send the item with tracking or via registered mail to be covered by paypal seller protection. Express post where you have the stamped proof of postage with address details is also acceptable, but not the prepaid satchels (except 5kgs if you have the address details stamped on the tear off section you keep).

Unfortunately a few items do go astray in the mail. I had one item take 16 days to be delivered a half hour drive away....There are also some unfortunate buyers that seem to have almost every item they purchase go missing in the mail, arrive damaged or not as described.

You need to assess for each item given its value what the best method of postage is. I send all items over $50 in value via registered mail, others with tracking and low value items via regular mail. You also need to accept that a small portion of items may go astray, be damaged in transit etc and factor that into how you price your products as you are liable for the item reaching the buyer in its stated condition.

Re: Wgere does my responsability end once an item is posted?

bsal6160 — Tue, 08 Jan 2013 11:32:27 GMT

Jetboy,

Your responsibility ends once the buyer has the item and is happy with it. Its that simple.

Re: Wgere does my responsability end once an item is posted?

foxette-in-sox — Tue, 08 Jan 2013 11:37:10 GMT

Will usually post within 20 business days of receiving cleared payment

?????

Re: Wgere does my responsability end once an item is posted?

digital*ghost — Tue, 08 Jan 2013 13:33:03 GMT

Surel there has to be a point, legally where I am no longer responsible for the item?

Legally, the point that you are not responsible is once you have posted an item, but the fact is that's almost irrelevant in the day to day running of an eBay business.

I say that because, and this is largely my personal opinion, there's a difference between legal responsibility and moral responsibility. The law states that by choosing to purchase online and not opt for registered post, the buyer accepts all risks and responsibilities of loss, but in practice, very few buyers are actually prepared to, and because they don't have to via processes available to them with PayPal and credit cards, the majority will hold you responsible despite any T&Cs you have in your listing - you don't really have much of a choice of how people will react and/or who they will hold responsible (this is on a personal level, i.e. when dealing with customers sans PayPal or other involvement, which is where you may have an opportunity to contest a dispute or decision).

You can choose to accept moral responsibility, though. The way I see it, sure, legally the buyer is supposed to know, accept and take the risk, but I enter into every sale being fully aware of the risks as well, and I either have to take them, or minimise them myself, which is both a matter of protecting the items for my customers, and protecting my business from losses I can't afford.

Re: Wgere does my responsability end once an item is posted?

tall_bearded — Tue, 08 Jan 2013 18:32:00 GMT

Legally, irrespective of what payment method the buyer uses you are not required to provide the buyer with a refund if you have proof of postage and the minimum proof that PayPal , with reference to its own policies, will now accept as proof of postage is a dated receipt from Aust Post stating that, contemporaneous to the transaction, you sent something to the suburb in which the buyer resides; but with the indication being that they will now, given a sufficiently hard shove, accept any proof which is accepted as proof of postage by Australian Courts, including a properly constructed postal ledger/register.

As for who selects the carrier, the legal position is very clear. Once paid for the item belongs to the buyer, and as such, the buyer has the right to dictate not only to carrier to be used but also the method of carriage, and if they fail to do so, then this amounts to an implied instruction by the buyer for the seller to make the decision on their behalf. Furthermore, if in your listing you have a number of recommended delivery (postal) options, and if the buyer pays for one of those options, the payment itself amounts to an express instruction that it be sent using that service.

As for what you believe your moral obligations to be, that is for you and you alone to decide.

Personally, I’m of the view that people should hold themselves accountable for the poor decisions they make and I have little time or sympathy for those that don’t. Therefore, if in my listing I recommended that, due to the added security inherent with receipted delivery they should use registered post, but they decide to use regular post because it is cheaper, and if the item then goes missing, then as far as I’m concerned it really is the buyer problem.

As for the disclaimers being contrary to eBay listing policy, the policy doesn’t say the disclaimer can’t be included in the listing. What policy does say is the disclaimer cannot be included in that component of the listing specifically provided for Postage Costs. That is there is no preclusion in the listing policy which says the disclaimer cannot be included in any other part of the listing.

Finally, and for completeness sake, should at any time a buyer lodge a claim with PayPal, and PayPal decides that claim in the buyer favour, and should you disagree with that outcome, then you have the right to dispute that decision by lodging a complaint with the Financial Ombudsman Service which is a free service.

Re: Wgere does my responsability end once an item is posted?

carls*world — Tue, 08 Jan 2013 20:52:32 GMT

During a recent "discussion" with Aust Post about a missing item, I was told in no uncertain terms, that by their "policy" (whether that be a legal standing or simply policy) any parcel remains the property of the sender until successfully delivered to the receiver.

Re: Wgere does my responsability end once an item is posted?

tall_bearded — Tue, 08 Jan 2013 21:07:34 GMT

Sorry but I can’t respond to your post because to do so would amount in the view to the moderators, to engaging in an interpersonal dispute.

Re: Wgere does my responsability end once an item is posted?

phorum_junkie* — Tue, 08 Jan 2013 21:51:51 GMT

When posters say that a seller's responsibility ends once they have handed over the parcel to the carrier they cherry pick the relevant legislation and always fail to quote it in it's entirety which in fact states that the sender is responsible until the parcel is received by the buyer.

All that is irrelevant anyway as it is Paypal policy that applies and your contract with them, as a seller, clearly states that you are responsible unless you can prove you have sent the parcel to the address in Paypal.

As click & send is cheaper than regular post and qualifies for PP seller protection I am at a loss to know why everyone doesn't use it!

As for buyers leaving negs even when you have refunded or resent it is not very nice of them but they have a right to leave whatever feedback they want, again with click & send the tracking number is automatically added to the transaction so the buyer can see exactly where their parcel is and will know for sure that it was posted promptly as soon as payment cleared and that any delay is the fault of AP and will be less likely to leave negs.

Re: Wgere does my responsability end once an item is posted?

foxette-in-sox — Tue, 08 Jan 2013 22:02:41 GMT

At the end of the day,there are so many issues with OP's 'business',that I doubt very much they'll be on ebay for very long.

Justin,if you come back at all to read this,you really need to do a fast overhaul of everything or ebay will either shut you down or severely restrict your listings.

Re: Wgere does my responsability end once an item is posted?

Anonymous — Tue, 08 Jan 2013 22:14:50 GMT

Would tracking and postcode alone be sufficient for PP seller protection? I normally send everything Registered which is proving to be quite expensive when it comes to sending items of lower value.

Re: Wgere does my responsability end once an item is posted?

tall_bearded — Tue, 08 Jan 2013 23:29:30 GMT

“ When posters say that a seller's responsibility ends once they have handed over the parcel to the carrier they cherry pick the relevant legislation and always fail to quote it in its entirety which in fact states that the sender is responsible until the parcel is received by the buyer”.

Which legislation and which part of that legislation do you say states the ‘sender is responsible until the parcel is received by the buyer’

That is, is not the relevant legislation which governs all sales contracts the Sales of Goods Act (SoGA).

Doesn’t the SoGA stipulate that when it comes to specific goods they belong to buyer once paid for?

Doesn’t the Act also stipulate, when it comes to specific goods the buyer has a right to pick up the item, but should they request, or should the nature of the transaction require the item be delivered, then risk passes from the seller to the buyer at the time the item is handed to the carrier.

As for “All that is irrelevant anyway as it is Paypal policy that applies and your contract with them, as a seller, clearly states that you are responsible unless you can prove you have sent the parcel to the address in Paypal.”

Does not the above contradict what you said above, in that don’t both PayPal Buyer and Seller Protection mirror what the SoGA says who is a risk once the item has been handed over to the carrier..

That is doesn’t the policy say that they (PayPal) are not providing a policy of insurance. That is they don’t underwrite the risk referred to above.

That is doesn’t the policy say that the protection is limited to the provision of a recovery service – that is they will only reverse the transaction if a right to recovery has been established.

That is doesn’t the policy say, if postage is proved, a right of recovery may not exist.

Doesn’t the policy state that the minimum proof required is a dated receipt from the carrier which shows something was sent to the suburb in which the buyer resides.

As for “As click & send is cheaper than regular post and qualifies for PP seller protection I am at a loss to know why everyone doesn't use it!’

The last time I checked you can’t use it for large letters and most of what we sell is sent by large letter. Therefore for a significant number of sellers they have to find some other way of protecting ourselves against item not received claims, which is where a postal register come in. That is if the SA Supreme Court will accept such a register as proof of postage, if PayPal say they won’t, then when that decision is disputed, it’s a no brainer as to what the FOS will find.

In any event, my rationale behind including registered post in my listing is not so I can prove postage. The reason why I include it is because it reminds the buyer of the risk inherent with sending things buy regular post and they are the one at risk and encourages them to mitigate that risk by purchasing increased protection.

Increased protection because it significantly reduces the risk of the item being lost, because it requires the item to signed for on delivery. Therefore it precludes the possibility of the item being stolen because no one was home and it was ‘Safe Dropped”.

Increased protection because, if the item is lost, and PayPal decide not to make a discretionary payment - and the indications are they are becoming more and more relucent to do so – then the buyer has a far better chance of being compensated by AP than if the item had been sent regular post.

Needless to say, If I offer to take the time and trouble to stand in line so that it can be registered and the buyer says no by selection a cheaper less safe option, then I see no moral obligation to further protect them the poor decision they have made.

Re: Wgere does my responsability end once an item is posted?

*crikey*mate* — Wed, 09 Jan 2013 01:26:37 GMT

I'm pretty sure that Contract Law and the via Common Law also comes into that, doesn't it Tall Bearded?

I.e. The point at which the contract has been completed (i.e when the buyer actually becomes the legal owner of the goods)(Offer/Acceptance etc) and also wouldn't the postal rule come into play here as well? (Adams v Lindsell).

Re: Wgere does my responsability end once an item is posted?

phorum_junkie* — Wed, 09 Jan 2013 01:36:42 GMT

Doesn’t the Act also stipulate, when it comes to specific goods the buyer has a right to pick up the item, but should they request, or should the nature of the transaction require the item be delivered, then risk passes from the seller to the buyer at the time the item is handed to the carrier.

Would you care to also give the rest of that part of the act TB?

I used to have a link to it but obviously haven't transferred it from my old computer.

I send items as large letters too sometimes, if it is a low value item and my profit allows for a replacement item to be sent by reg post then it just gets the stamps put on, if it is a more expensive item and/or a replacement would put me out of pocket then it goes as a registered letter, a whopping $2.85 over the stamp cost as I still have plenty of reg post labels bought back when that was all they cost!

Re: Wgere does my responsability end once an item is posted?

tall_bearded — Wed, 09 Jan 2013 02:31:45 GMT

Link to the requested legislation.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/sa/consol_act/soga1895128/

You may want state with those sections dealing with risk, title and delivery/ insurance.

You may also want to read the following

http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/journals/JlLawInfoSci/2008/4.html#Heading190

So can you now please show me where the legislation say, deemed delivery notwithstanding, “that the sender is responsible until the parcel is received by the buyer”

Furthermore I’ll pose you this question,

If, as you say, the legislation says the seller is liable until after delivery, why does PayPal limit the buyers’ ability to recover to circumstances where postage is not proved. That is, you are saying the legislation confers a right to recover up until such time as the buyer receives the item, yet he PayPal agreement says no recovery right exists if postage is proved. Therefore, does that not mean when it comes to items lost in transit, PayPal buyer Protection affords the buyer a lower level of protection than the legislation, and in fact, by using PayPal they agreed to accept that lower level of protection.

Re: Wgere does my responsability end once an item is posted?

tall_bearded — Wed, 09 Jan 2013 03:21:07 GMT

“I'm pretty sure that Contract Law and the via Common Law also comes into that, doesn't it Tall Bearded?”

Yes they do, but is it not also true where there is a tension between the common law and a the statute, the statute prevails

As for Adams, l understand this decision was handed down in about 1820, that is nearly 200 years ago and due to a passage of time it relevance is now pretty much limited to at which point in time does an exchange of correspondence give rise to a contract; whereas the current discussion is about who is at risk after a contract has been entered into, and the circumstances of the contract requires or the buyer directly or by inference request the item be delivered, and it subsequently lost after being handed to the carrier, with current legislation, which postdates Adams by about 40 years and repeated amended since, saying it’s the buyer.