topic Re: Click and Send satchels - proof of sending for sellers? in Selling

Click and Send satchels - proof of sending for sellers?

elves*n*sparkles — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 01:04:39 GMT

I have only used Click and Send a few times as a seller to send to buyers, but am starting to use more.

It has changed since I last used it.

I am just wondering what the proof of sending part is that I should retain as proof of sending for PAYPAL?

Under the old system when you printed the label you got a copy of the label and the post office stamped this, but now there is only one copy of the address label that you put on the parcel.

I was under the impression you filled out the SAME little registered post slip as you do for regular parcels but tick the box that says "Signature Item prepared through Click and Send", and Auspost stamp this. I have asked them to do this but many times they have said that it is ONLY for registered post, NOT for Click and Send.

There IS the option to pay for "signature on Delivery" with Click and Send and I am assuming this is the only time you can use the registered post slip, and tick that box, and then retain as proof of sending.

So, if you use Click and send WITHOUT paying extra for the signature on delivery (ie, just use standard Click and Send with tracking), is there NO proof of sending you can retain for Paypal purposes?

I have asked Auspost but they have no idea. They barely know how to process my Click and Send items as it is!

Thank you for your help.

Re: Click and Send satchels - proof of sending for sellers?

digital*ghost — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 01:17:46 GMT

What I do is, when I go to print the label, save a copy of the pdf document that is generated - that will be proof that the postage was paid for, and that the address was the same as provided by the buyer on the payment notification.

You also need proof that the item was actually posted, so if you lodge over the counter and ensure it's scanned into the system, there will be a record of the article having been posted (there was some recent talk about lodgement receipts no longer being issued, which would be a document you can keep for as long as necessary and preferable to relying on online tracking events since they're only available for a limited time, but there is also a record a parcel's status in your C&S account, and you can opt to subscribe to tracking events via email, which also gives you confirmation that you can keep for as long as necessary - I'd suggest 12 months).

Re: Click and Send satchels - proof of sending for sellers?

citychic4you — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 03:07:17 GMT

Australia Post is still issuing the receipts I sent 2 parcels yesterday no drama

Re: Click and Send satchels - proof of sending for sellers?

elves*n*sparkles — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 05:34:46 GMT

Yes I get the lodgement receipt, but this is not satifsfactory for Paypal. I need the date/post office stamp on something as well. At least I'm pretty sure I need it. I'd like to know if anyone has successfully won a paypal claim with a pdf or screen shot of their click and send label they sent, and the lodgement receipt from the post office?

Re: Click and Send satchels - proof of sending for sellers?

phorum_junkie* — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 05:50:31 GMT

Are you using your own packaging or the ebay branded satchels? If your own packaging then you are not saving much money as you would probably need signature required, if you are using the ebay branded satchels then as long as they are lodged in over the counter and you either have a lodgement receipt or can check that the tracking is active that should be all you need.

Re: Click and Send satchels - proof of sending for sellers?

elves*n*sparkles — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:20:53 GMT

Yes Ebay branded satchels. But the lodgement receipt doesn't show the address on it. I had thought Paypal need

documentation that a parcel was lodged

That the parcel lodged had the address of the buyer

If I was to submit a claim defence to Paypal, (using the lodgement receipt) - it does not show the address, only the item ID. So unless Paypal can check with Auspost that the parcel ID is linked with the buyer's address I would imagine Paypal wouldn't be satisfied. I doubt Paypal have time to do that. Hance why they usually want all the documentation upfront?

In theory, a pdf copy of the address label or screen shot, could be altered digitally. Hence why the ink date stamp (manually performed by Auspost staff) on parcel lodgement documentation that contains the buyers address is a superior option?

All annoying pedantic, but perhaps similar to what JPs do when they verify documents?

I've NEVER had a claim, just trying to cover myself and do things correctly.

Re: Click and Send satchels - proof of sending for sellers?

davewil1964 — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:27:51 GMT

Click and Send has been approved by Paypal as a seller protection compliant postage method, so presumably a scanning event (which doesn't HAVE to be lodgement) plus a copy of the address label is sufficient.

Re: Click and Send satchels - proof of sending for sellers?

digital*ghost — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:38:40 GMT

In theory, a pdf copy of the address label or screen shot, could be altered digitally. Hence why the ink date stamp (manually performed by Auspost staff) on parcel lodgement documentation that contains the buyers address is a superior option?

PayPal have to worry about theory - anything can be altered and I suspect they are aware of that. If they're smart, they do more than check the addressee text on the labels because there is far more information on them than just the name and address. My PO occasionally hands over stamped registered post lodgement forms blank, just so they don't hold up the other customers waiting in line while I fill it out, so JMO a C&S label is a more trustworthy proof than a registered post lodgement form. 😉

Re: Click and Send satchels - proof of sending for sellers?

davewil1964 — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:58:39 GMT

It would have to be same suburb anyway I presume. The barcode and that little box up the top right contain a mass of info. Presumably that is what is used to route the item until it gets to the postie and if you alter that it is unlikely to get anywhere.

Re: Click and Send satchels - proof of sending for sellers?

elves*n*sparkles — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 11:41:12 GMT

okay that all makes sense. I might stop doing the slips and asking for the postmark. I'll just get the lodgement receipt and save the pdf of the address label. I'll probably never need them but if I do I will then find out if it's enough for paypal! I never have major expensvie items anyway, so yeah, I should probably stop stressing. Thanks all for your help. 🙂

Re: Click and Send satchels - proof of sending for sellers?

redbook3 — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 12:01:02 GMT

When you print out your label in C&S there are two other boxes - summary and tax invoice if I recall correctly. If you are worried at all just get a hard copy of all and file them away.

The tracking number on the receipt will match the number on the summary ( and make sure you get the receipt, even if the doodoo's at the counter say they don't issue them - it is your right as a ' sendee ' )

And short of doing all of the above , taking a video of what is in the parcel with a JP, policeman, judge, Lord Mayor, premier, prime minister, ombudsman ..... standing beside you as you wrap and process the parcel would probably make no difference... so -

there you go - you have self helped by saying you won't stress.

I don't think it will be a major problem - just ask the regulars how many they have lost over all their long selling careers and they'll tell you the same thing.

Just enjoy what you're doing

Re: Click and Send satchels - proof of sending for sellers?

pats359 — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 13:48:06 GMT

I thought one of the advantages of click & send + ebay sachels was that you didn't have to wait in line at a post office to send? You can drop it in a red post box can't you?

I haven't done alot of selling on ebay, but do many buyers really say something hasn't arrived when it actually did? Everyone seems to be very cautious when sending. We must have faith in Aust Post surely? I do.

Re: Click and Send satchels - proof of sending for sellers?

davewil1964 — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 13:55:07 GMT

If the buyer claims INR, then you need at least one tracking event. The ones I've checked usually have lodgement, at delivery centre, onboard with driver and delivered. BUT, anecdotally, they don't always get scanned at any point in the journey, so if you lodge over the counter and get it scanned then, you have the required minimum tracking event. The lodgement receipt is a backup if things do go awry.

Re: Click and Send satchels - proof of sending for sellers?

dazzoz — Sat, 02 Feb 2013 00:57:54 GMT

exactly, click & send saves all parcel details in your account to lookup later and reprint if required ( i think for up to 90 days). If posting in red post boxes you just need to cross fingers & hope Aust post scans the parcel at some stage as proof it was posted & in the system.

Re: Click and Send satchels - proof of sending for sellers?

breracing-1 — Sat, 02 Feb 2013 04:00:08 GMT

The Paypal user agreements lists only Registered Post and Eparcel as a recommended postage service from Auspost? It's Auspost who claims that click & send is Paypal approved as far as I am aware?

Re: Click and Send satchels - proof of sending for sellers?

davewil1964 — Sat, 02 Feb 2013 04:48:16 GMT

Paypal require proof of posting to a specific address, period. C&S provides that. As do couriers.

If you're so concerned, maybe pay $3.70 more for registered standard 500g satchel. Doubtless you will lose sales or realise less profit, but you won't stress when the one in 500 $20 item goes missing. Only you will know how much being covered for that $20 actually cost you.

Re: Click and Send satchels - proof of sending for sellers?

tall_bearded — Sat, 02 Feb 2013 16:50:10 GMT

Davewil at post 15 states “Paypal require proof of posting to a specific address, period” (emphasis is mine)

The PayPal policy under the heading What is proof of shipment? states

For sellers, we require proof of shipment from you if a buyer files a chargeback or reversal for an unauthorised payment, or if the buyer claims the item wasn't received.

For buyers, if you file a claim for a 'significantly not-as-described' item, we may require you to ship the item back to the Seller. You will be required to show proof of shipment.

Buyers and sellers, at the very least, must provide documentation that includes the date the item was sent, plus one of:

An official acceptance by the shipper, such as a postmark or online status (status that shows the item was delivered is also acceptable)

The recipient's delivery address showing at least the state, city and postcode (or international equivalent)

A receipt from Australia Post showing at least the recipient's suburb, city or postcode (or international equivalent) (again the emphasis is mine)

Re: Click and Send satchels - proof of sending for sellers?

davewil1964 — Sat, 02 Feb 2013 21:35:50 GMT

For the sake of brevity I stand by what I wrote.

What you failed to mention is that your emphasised proof requires a protracted battle with Paypal/FOS to be successful.

Re: Click and Send satchels - proof of sending for sellers?

tall_bearded — Sun, 03 Feb 2013 00:44:23 GMT

Define protracted.

Step I - email PayPal advising; “the proof provided is within the scope of what they (PayPal) say falls within the definition of ‘Proof of Shipment’, and as such, if the decision is not revered within 3 business days, I will lodge a dispute with the Finance Ombudsman Service, with an info copy to the relevant regulatory authority claiming systemic problems with PayPal’s decision making and in house dispute resolution processes”. Fifty percent of the time that’s the end of the matter, with the funds being restored into the account without the requirement to lodge a dispute with the FOS.

Step 2 - As for the other 50 percent lodge the dispute with the FOS, with the grounds for dispute being; PayPal failed to abide by its own policy in refusing to accept a form of proof which their own policy states is proof of postage, namely, a dated Australia post receipt stipulating that an item was sent to the suburb in which the buyer resides’. Outcome, usually within as little as 24 hours or no more than a few days, PayPal advises the FOS that they concede the application and all monies has been reinstated into the sellers account.

Mind you all it took was a few minutes to write an e-mail and is necessary a few more minutes to fill in the dispute application on-line, and apart from the time spent doing same, it cost the seller nothing, and in every case they will get their money back within a week or so at the latest.

Re: Click and Send satchels - proof of sending for sellers?

phorum_junkie* — Sun, 03 Feb 2013 01:14:12 GMT

The standard of proof for the Aus Paypal site is indeed at a lower level than most other countries, the fees are also lower.

If more and more people start going to the FOS with complaints when they know perfectly well they have absolutely no way of proving they sent anything to the buyer's actual address Paypal will most likely decide to both increase fees and require proof of delivery, not just of posting which will cost us all, buyers and sellers, in the long run.

At the moment they tend to just capitulate when anyone goes to the FOS because it is cheaper for them to do that than to fight it, one day they may just decide enough is enough though!

There are times when Paypal get it wrong but in all fairness do you think it is OK for somebody to keep their money when they could have sent an empty satchel to any address in the buyer's suburb and offer that as proof of having sent the item?

As click & send is actually cheaper than red satchels why anyone would want to put themselves in a position where they had to go to the FOS to save refunding a few dollars is beyond me.