topic Item broken by Australia Post - need some advice! in Selling

Item broken by Australia Post - need some advice!

lyndalpn-cows — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 05:25:55 GMT

Okay needing some advice

I sold an item (a radio) to a fellow and posted it off - double wrapped in bubble wrap, packed with lots of packing and inside an Aussie Post box and it has apparently arrived badly damaged. The box is intact from the photos I have seen but the plastic casing is wrecked and not surpisingly the radio doesnt work. the item number is 261186439014 if that helps.

I sent the item registered post and have the lodgement receipt. (and ended up paying $13 more to post it than he paid for the postage due to me miscalculating the charges! ARgh) I have advised the fellow he needs to take it to the post office with the packaging and put in a claim form.

The buyer has responded today to say that he will not be taking it to the Post office but will be sending it back to me and is demanding a refund. That it is my item and my responsibility to sort out nd that he wants the refund he is entitled to. As far as I see it it is only my item until it is posted....

According to the registered post lodgement advice it says

"The addressee has the sole right to claim after accepting delivery of the article"

So... the way I see it I have a couple of options

1. Is a refund and lose my money - this is a $125 radio so not a small amount.

2. Refuse to refund and most likely get a negative feedback.

What do you advise I do? Am I correct in my ststament that he must make the claim? Im starting to think that its the prinicple of the thing and I dont care all that much (well not $125 worth) about a negative feedback? If It was a small item I would just refund and move on, but frankly his last email was stroppy and a bit rude.

Re: Item broken by Australia Post - need some advice!

***super_nova*** — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 05:35:17 GMT

Ask for photo of the damage, and then refund. Not much point sending it back.

If the box is not damaged then it was not packed well enough, and that is your fault.

The buyer could try to see if AP would admit fault, but it would be very likely unlikely.

Or you could probably try something like this:

dear buyer;

i am so sorry that the item arrived damaged, please take it to the PO with all the wrapping for assessment, and once you lodge the claim in my name, I will refund you the whole amount you paid including postage.

yours xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Re: Item broken by Australia Post - need some advice!

*new2vintage — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:05:39 GMT

If your buyer has paid with Paypal he can open a dispute and receive his payment back if he wins it. Your refund policy indicates you are usually willing to give a refund so maybe that's why he expects to receive one.

A vintage radio needs to be wrapped in plenty of bubble wrap with pieces of styrene foam around it and it needs to be inside 2 boxes. I advise you to only offer local pick up if you ever want to sell another radio.

Re: Item broken by Australia Post - need some advice!

chezzy — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:16:00 GMT

Agree on the double-boxing - have first box 'suspended' in packaging material and well in from outer box. Also if you shake box you shouldn't be able to feel anything move (ideally!). Worth keeping in mind that item may need to survive being dropped from waist height (well that is something I keep in mind when packing items)

Re: Item broken by Australia Post - need some advice!

lyndalpn-cows — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:18:38 GMT

It was in bubble wrap and packing and one sturdy box (granted it was not in two boxes - it would have quadrupled the post cost but maybe thats what I had to do!) and registered and insured even thats not enough. Ugh I hate Australia Post.I send china and glass all the time, have sent glass lamps, clocks, telephones and never have had this happen..... this was certainly an extraordinary amount of force to do the damage that has occurred.

So.. just checking, my listing says "I take every care with packing however cannot be held responsible for items once they have been posted" is that not enough to cover me? Or would he still have a right in a dispute. I also insured and registered it even though he didnt request it or pay the extra for registered post... what an idiot I am!

I guess my other issue is that I cannot even attempt to make a claim - he needs to do that from what I can see - so I have no ability to even try and recoup the costs if I refund. So you guys would seriously just refund? Im surprised. I know its not his fault, but wow.

Re: Item broken by Australia Post - need some advice!

lyndalpn-cows — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:19:27 GMT

It certainly didnt move when I shook it and I certainly think it would have handled a drop. And Im really careful with packing. But yeah, it seems not careful enough!!

Re: Item broken by Australia Post - need some advice!

patchoo78 — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:30:20 GMT

I send china and glass all the time, have sent glass lamps, clocks, telephones and never have had this happen..... this was certainly an extraordinary amount of force to do the damage that has occurred.

Are you entirely sure that Aus Post damaged it? Your above statement suggests that this is the first time this has happened and that you send China and other breakables..

You'd think that the box would be showing some kind of damage

Re: Item broken by Australia Post - need some advice!

2106greencat — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:30:28 GMT

just checking, my listing says "I take every care with packing however cannot be held responsible for items once they have been posted" is that not enough to cover me? Or would he still have a right in a dispute.

As the seller you are responsible to get it to the buyer intact. You can state anything you want in your TOS, but fact of the matter is it will not be accepted if a dispute is raised.

It is unfair of your buyer not to take it to the post office to see if the packaging was adequate, however I do not know if that would help you with a paypal claim or not. As far as I know once it is received it is the property of the receiver and they are the one's who need to claim for any damages. Maybe ring paypal and clarify as it seems to be a very grey area, and AP are not very forthcoming when it means admitting an error on their part.

You will of course be told that it needs to be packaged to withstand 20kg dropped from waist height, but of course, as yet AP have not actually advised anyone how this can be achieved, short of a titanium box 😞

Re: Item broken by Australia Post - need some advice!

chezzy — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:32:22 GMT

I hear you 😞

The packing 'advice' wasn't necessarily directed at you. Just sharing my own experience because you just don't know what posted items are subjected to. Yes, double boxing may increase the cost especially if AP does the cubing thing. You could always put it all inside a lumpy or lop-sided expandable bag - I don't think they cube those 😉

Can you ring AP and explain the situation? I'd be trying to put in a claim with AP, if they deem your packaging materials sufficient you may be entitled to compo (sounds like you have used AP products so that is a good start). I really feel for you, good luck.

Re: Item broken by Australia Post - need some advice!

*new2vintage — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:34:01 GMT

Can you see if there is any damage to the box at all ? If the radio is badly damaged there should be some sign of the box being dropped or crushed. Aus Post will only give compensation if it was packed to their standards and I think the buyer needs to make the claim. The fact that you accept no responsibility for posted items doesn't hold water with Paypal.

Re: Item broken by Australia Post - need some advice!

bsal6160 — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:38:40 GMT

The buyer has every right to expect the item to arrive AS SHOWN on your listing. The amount of sellers who put that statement in their listing about all care but no responsibility is just staggering. It is enough to make me hit the back button as soon as I see it.

Why would you not just refund? The item they received is NOT the item they bought. It would be like you lay-buying an item in a b&m store and when you to pick it up it is something different then the store saying "Sorry just take what I have given you and don't complain that its not what you actually paid for"

Re: Item broken by Australia Post - need some advice!

phorum_junkie* — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:41:34 GMT

I have said it many times before but bubble wrap can be what causes the damage, if it is wrapped fairly tightly round the item then the air in the bubbles can expand in the heat of a delivery van and crush the contents.

It is much better to first wrap in some light foam or similar that can absorb any expansion and cushion the item.

Double boxing can be the lightest way to post if you cushion the item in foam in one box then place it in a bigger one with packing beads all round. No bubble wrap and if done well the parcel can be dropped from shoulder height and withstand 20kgs being dropped on top of it which is what AP consider adequate packaging.

Re: Item broken by Australia Post - need some advice!

***super_nova*** — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:42:09 GMT

You will of course be told that it needs to be packaged to withstand 20kg dropped from waist height, but of course, as yet AP have not actually advised anyone how this can be achieved, short of a titanium box 😞

The way it can be achieved is that it has to be protected against impact (sturdy box) and than against shock (being dropped and just breaking up). Anything with fragile components should have protective padding placed inside, then wrapped in couple of layers of bubble wrap, then placed in a box with couple of inches space around. The space needs to be filled with shock absorbing material - the best according to studies is scrunched up newspaper. Then this box should be placed inside another box (sturdy box that will not be crushed) with bit of a space around, which again needs to be filled with more shock absorbing material. Some people like poly peanuts, but they can move and might all end up on one side, leaving the other side unprotected. The item must not be able to move around.

Re: Item broken by Australia Post - need some advice!

lyndalpn-cows — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:44:58 GMT

hmjmmm lots of food for thought. @patchoo78 yeah to be honest I had the same thought that it seemed weird that it is pretty smashed up with an intact box? My first email back to the guy didnt say that I would or wouldnt refund, i said that he needed to take to the post office and claim for dmaage, and to let me know how he went and keep me in the loop so we could disucss. His repsonse to me was pretty narky after that saying he would not do that, it was my responsibility not his problem and he wants the refund he is entitled to.

And patchoo you're quite right it is very unusual. In six months of selling breakable collectables I have had one handle break off a china tea cup in transit, however it had a hairline crack to start with and I was able to replace it with another item so the buyer was happy. The only other issue I have had is one of my very first purchases the fellow said he didnt like the item and wanted to return it, but when it got back to me it was cracked badly (a silver teapot) and this couldnt have happened in transit. I believe he dropped it, panicked and sent it back. That was 6 months ago and I learned a lot from then.... and actually put the caveat about responsibility for posted items in my listings based on advice at the time, but I can see that doesnt mean much.

Its hard to know how to approach this

Re: Item broken by Australia Post - need some advice!

chezzy — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:53:59 GMT

Personally I feel a PO at the addressee's end should be sighting/assessing the item/damage. An enquiry/claim should be lodged. Sure the buyer can send item back to you, what if it arrives in WORSE condition? Seems silly. I like the sample letter by Super Nova (?). If it was me I'd be on the phone to AP explaining the situation (and mention you used AP packaging etc etc etc) but that the recipient doesn't want to take it to the PO to be sighted?? Find out what your options are. I thought PM'26s (if they still call them that) could be lodged by either party?

Re: Item broken by Australia Post - need some advice!

lyndalpn-cows — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:55:01 GMT

@bsal - Look the only reasoning I am questioning this is that when it happened with the silver teapot (although I still am suspicious that it was broken by the buyer) I was told by so many people on the forum that it was not my repsonsibility and I was crazy to refund etc etc.so I thought I'd better see what you guys thought. I guess its just crappy to be out of pocket $125+ postage when I cant even try to claim it back and he potentially could at least try. If he went to AP and they said no, I had thought I would probably just refund him at that point, I was just shocked that he wouldnt even attempt to seek a claim.

I guess I thought I should seek advice her from more experienced sellers on how to approach it. I do appreciate the packing advice thank you - I guess I underestimated the fragility of the radio. As i said I send heaps of china and glass, only use AP boxes and hey I got a porcelain figurine all the way to a buyer in Germany in one piece last month!

Re: Item broken by Australia Post - need some advice!

lyndalpn-cows — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:56:57 GMT

@chezzy - supernovas email is very similar to what I asked him to do and he said he would not do that. Ringing AP is a good idea. According to the notice of lodgment slip I have it says only the addressee can claim for damage.

Re: Item broken by Australia Post - need some advice!

2106greencat — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 07:00:24 GMT

The way it can be achieved is that it has to be protected against impact (sturdy box) and than against shock (being dropped and just breaking up). Anything with fragile components should have protective padding placed inside, then wrapped in couple of layers of bubble wrap, then placed in a box with couple of inches space around. The space needs to be filled with shock absorbing material - the best according to studies is scrunched up newspaper. Then this box should be placed inside another box (sturdy box that will not be crushed) with bit of a space around, which again needs to be filled with more shock absorbing material. Some people like poly peanuts, but they can move and might all end up on one side, leaving the other side unprotected. The item must not be able to move around.

Good advice Nova, no doubt about it. However 20kg, dropped from waist high - would total even your well packed item. AP's stand on this is laughable. And they are not on their own, there is not a freight company in the country that doesn't have a 'package safe damage disclosure' written into their contract.

Re: Item broken by Australia Post - need some advice!

chezzy — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 07:00:40 GMT

Yep ring AP, do it! They may send you out an enquiry/claim form. I haven't seen one for a long time but they used to be green and known as PM26 forms. Not sure if there is a version available online, would not know where to look in the maze of internet.

Re: Item broken by Australia Post - need some advice!

lyndalpn-cows — Wed, 17 Apr 2013 07:20:17 GMT

Ok. Spoken to Australia Post. They said that I can make the claim as long as he send everything (including the original box) back. Happy to refund him when it arrives.