topic Re: Ripped off by buyer in Selling

Ripped off by buyer

pandoras_prints — Sun, 05 May 2013 23:15:28 GMT

I'm wondering if any sellers can advise me on what I should do here.

I recently sold an item it was paid for by the buyer using Paypal, the item was shipped (without tracking). The buyer has now claimed fraudulant account activity on her Paypal account (re: unauthorised access) and Paypal are asking me to refund her or provide tracking info.

I phoned the buyer this morning and she hung up on me after I said who I was and what its concerning.

I am very well aware that this person has indeed received the item purchased and is claiming unauthorised access through Paypal to keep the item and get the refund.

She is new to eBAy with only 5 feedbacks and joing last month.

I am unable to even open an item dispute to claim unpaid item.

This is totally unexceptable, I can't even leave a neg feedback. I have contacted eBay no results there.

Does anyone have any advise for me? I've been a seller on eBAy for many years and I've never come across this before.

Re: Ripped off by buyer

foxette-in-sox — Sun, 05 May 2013 23:31:58 GMT

Unfortuantely as you didn't use trackable postage,Paypal won't cover you.

JMO but a couple of things you CAN do although you won't necessarily get your money back.

Contact her other sellers.

If you've already left positive feedback,leave a follow up ie 'Is now claiming unauthorised use of Paypal account'

Send registered letter to her plus an email re you want immediate payment for the item or you will report to Online Fraud.

Report the buyer to Online Fraud if they refuse to repay you.

Is the dispute a chargeback from her bank or is it alleged hacking of her Paypal account ?

Perhaps you could ring Paypal as well.

Nothing else to suggest sorry.

Re: Ripped off by buyer

1mpuzzled — Sun, 05 May 2013 23:38:53 GMT

I've had similar thing happen to me, ebay don't care because they have already been paid. The only other option is the legal path but because you had no tracking on the item there's little point. Cut your loses, block the buyer and move on.

Without tracking you cannot prove they did get the item. I would use Click and Send postage system in the future. It has tracking and it's a little bit cheaper than regular postage as well.

www.clickandsend.com.au has all the details.

Re: Ripped off by buyer

1sweetap6v8 — Sun, 05 May 2013 23:39:35 GMT

Hi thats not good at all, Ring PP and demand they have the item shipped back at once or no refund will be provided as per PP rules the buyer must send it back.

If you sent the item as per PP rules signiture when received, You should be covered buy PP.

It is really disturbing that people can be so dishonest, just isn`t right.

I would be ringing PP and demanding they do the right thing as you have followed there rules and should be covered for this.

You need to ring paypal not ebay and demand they have the item shipped back immediately before reinstating any funds.

Also tell them that it is a fraudulant attempt at getting the item for free and that you do not intend refunding until your item has been returned. Also tell them that the woman will not engage in conversation about the matter.

Dailing that depending on the amount involved your only other options are the ombudsman or the police. Or you can send an email to the electronics crimes division to investigate it. I would also send an email to the buyer telling them that you are going to refer it to the police electronic crime squad as if she is being dishonest it may be enough to sway her mind to either send the item back or pay for it. Good luck and come tell us how u go.

Re: Ripped off by buyer

***super_nova*** — Mon, 06 May 2013 00:05:13 GMT

There is nothing that eBay or PP can do; they have no idea if you have sent the item, and you have no proof of sending it. PP offers seller protection to sellers who satisfy certain criteria = send by online trackable option.

Police or ombudsman will also be unable to help you. Whether the buyer received it or not is not really the point, the point is that the CC holder is claiming they did not authorised the payment, it may very well be that your buyer has received the item but as they used stolen CC to pay for it the money has been taken back. Or if their account has been compromised ALL payments would have been taken back, and it is up to the CC holder to go through the statements and weed out which payments are unauthorised. Just because the buyer hung up on you means nothing; if they use the CC for many purchases they may have many people calling them and abusing them, and they just do not want to deal with each upset seller over the phone.

Re: Ripped off by buyer

the-kazbar — Mon, 06 May 2013 00:10:26 GMT

Foxys advice in post #1 is correct - the others, not so much.

C&S do not offer a large letter service. The only way to protect yourself with letters is registered post, but its too late for that now.

PP will not help you either as you don't have proof of posting.

If you want to try and chase it through then online fraud squad it pretty much your only option.

Re: Ripped off by buyer

chezzy — Mon, 06 May 2013 00:22:51 GMT

I keep hearing paypal won't do this, ebay won't do that.

Personally I would be reporting this to whoever I could.

What about stat decs? Do they carry any weight??

This 'expectation' to roll over in defeat, get over it and move on is crazy.

Re: Ripped off by buyer

foxette-in-sox — Mon, 06 May 2013 00:34:04 GMT

I keep hearing paypal won't do this, ebay won't do that.

Personally I would be reporting this to whoever I could.

What about stat decs? Do they carry any weight??

This 'expectation' to roll over in defeat, get over it and move on is crazy.

Can you please point out where that bit is in anyones post ? Thanking you in advance 🙂

Re: Ripped off by buyer

chezzy — Mon, 06 May 2013 00:39:03 GMT

I should have said (if we want to be technical) is there 'seems' to be an expectation of defeat that comes through in these forum discussions - it wasn't specifically about this topic. If I had more time this morning I would be happy to go and fish a few examples out.

But I will ask my question again, actually I will word it a different way, can stat decs be used to assist ebayers in situation such as described in here?

Re: Ripped off by buyer

thesoulyearns — Mon, 06 May 2013 00:41:40 GMT

There is nothing that eBay or PP can do; they have no idea if you have sent the item, and you have no proof of sending it. PP offers seller protection to sellers who satisfy certain criteria = send by online trackable option.

That's really what it boils down to. It's explained on the PayPal website that they offer seller protection when you either ship via a trackable method or ship with a method that obtains a signature on delivery. For the most protection, I recommend the latter.

If any item is not worth the risk of losing the funds (and the item), you should automatically ship it with SOD. If possible, try to factor that in before you list the item so you're covered for the additional cost.

Re: Ripped off by buyer

ilovefashion! — Mon, 06 May 2013 00:55:34 GMT

Hi, I think every long ebayer has had this problem. I recently got the raw end of a deal on a $55.00 sale to Indonesia. They specifically asked for the cheapest cost to post it there, then 2 weeks later opened a item not received dispute on Paypal, I tried to explain to paypal that they asked for the cheapest post method, when I supplied my Australia Post account details showing the customs label number and the Australia Post invoice, they still weren't satisfied. Result - buyer gets their item, I loose $55.00. A rip off, too right!

As a result I no longer offer international post. And along with the increase listing and store fees I am slowly closing down my store after 9 years of trading.

Re: Ripped off by buyer

putney32 — Mon, 06 May 2013 00:58:42 GMT

I should have said (if we want to be technical) is there 'seems' to be an expectation of defeat that comes through in these forum discussions - it wasn't specifically about this topic. If I had more time this morning I would be happy to go and fish a few examples out.

But I will ask my question again, actually I will word it a different way, can stat decs be used to assist ebayers in situation such as described in here?

the 'expectation of defeat' comes from NOT following the guidelines to start with.

Paypal DO offer Seller protection

Seller DID NOT avail themselves of that protection , deciding, (for whatever reason) to 'go it alone'

Seller is now 'alone' and not covered,. . . therefore little Paypal can do as the correct procedure was not put in place, by the seller, to start with.

chezzy, I realize the correct way can be too expensive on some low value items, it is up to the seller to analyze the situation, weigh up the options, and refund the occasional 'missing item' or 'paypal/bank chargeback'

Re: Ripped off by buyer

cq_tech — Mon, 06 May 2013 01:28:48 GMT

If I was the seller, I'd consider taking a few of my big hairy bikie mates along to pay them a friendly social visit, but that's just me. However, to suggest that others follow my example could be misconstrued as a violation of community values, so I won't. 🙂

Re: Ripped off by buyer

***super_nova*** — Mon, 06 May 2013 01:41:53 GMT

If this item is something that OP normally sells it is hardly worth the expense of signature on delivery; chargeback or claim for INR is something that needs to be factored into business and self-insured = putting 50c in a jar for each sale, and that should more than cover the occasional "lost" item. Or just accept such claims as fact of life in on line business, kick the cat and forget about it 🙂

Anyway, if the buyer's account was hacked, once they go through the payments they will sort out the authorised payments and hopefully you will get your money back. Once I could not work out what one payment on my statement was and I went to bank to ask what should I do. They explained that they can do chargeback BUT they warned me to be very careful because it would mean that the matter will be investigated by the police and if it comes to light that I did indeed authorised this payment and the item was sent to my address, then I will be in deep poo. Then they looked into the records and were able to give me more info like the seller's eBay ID instead of the company which was on the statement, and I realised it was OK.

The reason why eBay will not do anything is simple because they do not have a jurisdiction over such matters. It is matter for bank and police.

Re: Ripped off by buyer

the_hawk* — Mon, 06 May 2013 01:49:08 GMT

CQ I like your thinking and its an advantage when a club has chapters in every state where brothers are always wanting to help each other

Re: Ripped off by buyer

shepherdsrule — Mon, 06 May 2013 04:20:32 GMT

If I was the seller, I'd consider taking a few of my big hairy bikie mates along to pay them a friendly social visit, but that's just me. However, to suggest that others follow my example could be misconstrued as a violation of community values, so I won't. 🙂

However, to suggest that others follow my example could be - telling them to break the law and wind up in jail - any real advice ?

😮

Re: Ripped off by buyer

wardy079 — Mon, 06 May 2013 05:40:41 GMT

Whilst I agree the buyer probably did receive the item how do you know for sure like you say in your post?

Re: Ripped off by buyer

phorum_junkie* — Mon, 06 May 2013 06:41:34 GMT

Of course the buyer received the item, that is not under dispute. The card holder has reported the transaction as a fraudulent use of their card something Paypal will protect you against if you can prove to their standards that you posted the parcel to the Paypal designated address.

You are on a hiding to nowhere disputing the chargeback with Paypal, much better to just tell them to go ahead and issue the refund, If you contest the chargeback and insist Paypal fight it the bank will almost certainly win and Paypal will add a $15 charge to the amount you have to pay back.

You can of course go after the person who received the item and threaten to report them for fraud if they do not make immediate payment but with no proof of posting or delivery it would all be bluff.

Re: Ripped off by buyer

cq_tech — Mon, 06 May 2013 07:01:54 GMT

However, to suggest that others follow my example could be - telling them to break the law and wind up in jail - any real advice ?

There's nothing illegal about a friendly social visit. I do it all the time myself. 😉

If you want some real advice, you could try cultivating your sense of humour. 🙂

Re: Ripped off by buyer

viewmont1071 — Mon, 06 May 2013 17:05:03 GMT

There is nothing that eBay or PP can do; they have no idea if you have sent the item, and you have no proof of sending it. PP offers seller protection to sellers who satisfy certain criteria = send by online trackable option.

Police or ombudsman will also be unable to help you. Whether the buyer received it or not is not really the point, the point is that the CC holder is claiming they did not authorised the payment, it may very well be that your buyer has received the item but as they used stolen CC to pay for it the money has been taken back. Or if their account has been compromised ALL payments would have been taken back, and it is up to the CC holder to go through the statements and weed out which payments are unauthorised. Just because the buyer hung up on you means nothing; if they use the CC for many purchases they may have many people calling them and abusing them, and they just do not want to deal with each upset seller over the phone.

minimum requirements are a receipt with the buyers postcode and a stat dec stating that you sent the item to the address stated on the paypal transaction page

here are the links to the paypal user agreement to substantiate my advice.

Please note prerequisite c and d are totally separate

https://cms.paypal.com/au/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full#PayPal%20Seller%20Protection%20Policy
PayPal Seller Protection Policy

Eligibility

S3.1 If you are a seller, we may not deduct funds from your account in connection with a Reversal where the following requirements are met for a transaction:

   a The item is sold on eBay;
   b You receive payment via PayPal;
   c You provide us with valid Proof of Shipment; and
   d The item is sent to the address we specify on the payment notification or "Transaction Details Page" which can be accessed by logging in to your PayPal account

To find what the "valid proof of shipment" is in context with the paypal user agreement the user agreement definitions must be accessed

Proof of Shipment

The proof of shipment accepted by us as set out within the “proof of shipment” section within the “Manage customer concerns” page of our website.

https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/customer-concerns

copy and paste from the provided definition and interpretation link

What is proof of shipment?

At the very least, your documentation must include the date the item was sent, plus one of:

An official acceptance by the shipper, such as a postmark or online status (status that shows the item was delivered is also acceptable), or

    The recipient’s delivery address showing at least the state, city and postcode (or international equivalent), or

    A receipt from Australia Post showing at least the recipient’s suburb, city or postcode (or international equivalent).