topic Re: Dodgy Make an Offer Buying Practice-Read the Note in Selling

Dodgy Make an Offer Buying Practice-Read the Note

gamezguy — Sun, 01 Sep 2013 22:47:38 GMT

I recently found an offer for an item OVER the Make an Offer price. Great, I thought, if you want to give me more money then fine.

When I went to accept the offer I noticed the buyers note: Inc delivery to Melbourne.

I also noticed the fine print stated that when you accept an offer you also accept any stated buyer conditions.

Clever buyer, but a sneaky practice. If I accepted I would have accepted a reduced offer as I would have to cover postage.

When you look at an offer please examine the buyers note, as you will be bound to any conditions that are stipulated here.

Cheers,

Re: Dodgy Make an Offer Buying Practice-Read the Note

springyzone — Mon, 02 Sep 2013 00:31:09 GMT

I guess it works for sellers the same as buyers.

If an offer seems to be too good to be true, there's most likely a catch.

Agree with you, it was a bit sneaky I suppose. I didn't even know a buyer could add conditions to a 'make an offer'.

Re: Dodgy Make an Offer Buying Practice-Read the Note

thecatspjs — Mon, 02 Sep 2013 01:22:42 GMT

I just don't get why anyone would think it is sneaky to propose conditions to a make an offer. The facility is there to do exactly that.

An offer to buy is certainly not restricted to price alone, an offer could include terms such as post costs / pick up / combined post / extended payment terms etc

When putting an offer to a seller I often propose conditions, including from time to time making my offer conditional on time of seller response, with a deadline of 24 hours for a response to the offer to hurry up the offer process.

Re: Dodgy Make an Offer Buying Practice-Read the Note

digital*ghost — Mon, 02 Sep 2013 02:12:39 GMT

@thecatspjs wrote:
I just don't get why anyone would think it is sneaky to propose conditions to a make an offer. The facility is there to do exactly that.

An offer to buy is certainly not restricted to price alone, an offer could include terms such as post costs / pick up / combined post / extended payment terms etc

That is what is shown to buyers on the full screen offer page, but interestingly not on the new pop-up window system - to offer a price that is inclusive of postage is contradictory to the way the system is supposed to work.

The conditions you add must not breach eBay policy.... I'm not making any specific claims as to what is or isn't policy because I haven't researched it in depth, but the seller has 48 hours to accept or decline - I doubt you can "invalidate" an offer because you put a different time limit on it - the offer itself is the same as a bid, and there are only certain conditions under which a bid / offer can be retracted. The seller not responding to enquiries within 24 hours is not one of those conditions.

Re: Dodgy Make an Offer Buying Practice-Read the Note

thecatspjs — Mon, 02 Sep 2013 02:34:30 GMT

I respectfully beg to differ.

You can propose contract sale terms in an offer, exactly the same as a seller can outline their sale terms in a listing.

An offer is not a bid, it is an offer that may be conditional on a buyers proposed terms being accepted. If the seller accepts your offer and conditions it forms a sales contract between you and the seller.

Re: Dodgy Make an Offer Buying Practice-Read the Note

tin.tiara — Mon, 02 Sep 2013 02:34:40 GMT

From a sellng point of view it would also mean if you had charged postage rather than free you would also be paying your final value fee on the postage as well. it all adds up as an expense.

Re: Dodgy Make an Offer Buying Practice-Read the Note

digital*ghost — Mon, 02 Sep 2013 02:37:27 GMT

eBay explain that an offer has the same contractual committment as a bid.

One of the reasons added terms can not breach eBay policy, and are meant to be for the item price only, is because eBay allow sellers to set up auto-decline and accept.

Re: Dodgy Make an Offer Buying Practice-Read the Note

digital*ghost — Mon, 02 Sep 2013 02:43:35 GMT

@digital*ghost wrote:
eBay explain that an offer has the same contractual committment as a bid.

....well, I thought they did, but now I can't find anything that says as much.

Re: Dodgy Make an Offer Buying Practice-Read the Note

thecatspjs — Mon, 02 Sep 2013 02:57:30 GMT

There are only a couple of rules that I can see.

One is about postage - if a seller has stated postage price separately - then that should not be included in an offer, the post specified stands as part of the offer.

If seller does not have stated exact posts costs, it can then be included in the overall offer if buyer pops in to their offer- postage included.

The time frame for best-offers just states that offers expire in 48 hours.

Exclusions identified in Questions and Answers on Best Offer primarily relate to out-of-stock quantity blocking and buyer restrictions such as being on blocked list.

Fortunately IMO this is a market place, ebay can only restrict trade and negotiation to a certain point.

Re: Dodgy Make an Offer Buying Practice-Read the Note

digital*ghost — Mon, 02 Sep 2013 03:07:05 GMT

@thecatspjs wrote:

The time frame for best-offers just states that offers expire in 48 hours.

It says this:

The fine print

Best Offers are good for 48 hours, or until the listing ends, whichever comes first.
If the seller doesn't respond to your offer within 48 hours, it is cancelled.
If a seller accepts your offer, you're required to complete the transaction.

Unless you retract your offer, and there is no "the seller hasn't responded to my offer within 24 hours" provided as a valid reason to retract, only the following:
- You accidentally enter a wrong offer amount (for example, you submitted an offer for $9.50 instead of $99.95).
- The description of an item you have placed an offer on has changed significantly.
http://offer.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?RetractBestOfferShow

the seller retains the ability to accept your offer after 24 hours, and if they do.... you don't believe you would be required to complete the transaction? I guess it depends on whether you think the time limit eBay imposes forms part of the policies that can't be breached when adding additional terms.

Re: Dodgy Make an Offer Buying Practice-Read the Note

digital*ghost — Mon, 02 Sep 2013 03:09:49 GMT

@digital*ghost wrote:
@digital*ghost wrote:
eBay explain that an offer has the same contractual committment as a bid.

....well, I thought they did, but now I can't find anything that says as much.

I knew it was there somewhere, just had to open my eyes.

Please remember that every Best Offer is binding.

Same link as above.

Re: Dodgy Make an Offer Buying Practice-Read the Note

retailtherapist_8 — Mon, 02 Sep 2013 03:39:31 GMT

I am just wondering if this would work in the reverse. A Seller has a listing with free postage, buyer sends offer, seller counters with offer + postage? Interesting concept and if the Seller is unable to counter with plus postage then I would say there is real inequity there.

Re: Dodgy Make an Offer Buying Practice-Read the Note

thecatspjs — Mon, 02 Sep 2013 03:41:12 GMT

An offer is binding if the seller accepts it.

If is conditional on being accepted within a time frame determined by the one making an offer, and the seller accepts the offer after the timeframe providing then it is not an enforceable sales contract.

It has some parallels to sellers putting terms and conditions in their listings that are not always in sync with ebay practices, for example, a seller putting a 2 day payment limit in their listings, nonetheless, it becomes a condition of a sale contract, even though ebay system allows for 8 days in total for the non-payment process.

IMO ebay outline a range of parameters for trading, some are quite clear cut rules, and others provide guidelines to practice that have a level of flexibility.

Re: Dodgy Make an Offer Buying Practice-Read the Note

adornedau — Mon, 02 Sep 2013 04:19:09 GMT

I agree with digital*ghost, Best offer is about the price, any other stipulations should be openly negotiated with the seller. For example, I sell sewing patterns and quite frequently I get notes from the buyer in the payment stating that they want it in a certain size. After talking with the buyer, they want me to actually make them a dress. (the mind boggles as to why someone thinks they can get a made to measure dress for $10 with $1.50 shipping). At no point in my listing does it say it's for a garment, it clearly states it's for a sewing pattern so you can make the items yourself, and it's listed under the correct category but I still get people frequently trying to get me to do it and none of them actually message me about it, they just buy it and then give their conditions.

I realise this is an extreme example and differs from the best offer issue, but by saying conditions of the sale can be changed with a best offer, it can really get out of hand and unlike terms and conditions set out by Ebay, buyers tend to not be aware of legal phrasing and can quite often be unclear about their requirements (especially those who know they are being downright cheeky).

Re: Dodgy Make an Offer Buying Practice-Read the Note

thecatspjs — Mon, 02 Sep 2013 04:37:14 GMT

Best offer is for the item in the listing only. So that scenario does not apply.

An offer is an offer. It is only becomes a contract if the seller accepts the offer, so a buyer can not dictate terms that are not acceptable to a seller.

If a seller does not read the terms proposed by the buyer, they are in the same boat as a buyer who does not read a listing description and the sellers terms - a situation of their own making.

Re: Dodgy Make an Offer Buying Practice-Read the Note

*crikey*mate* — Mon, 02 Sep 2013 05:10:35 GMT

A man walked into a bar

and he had a handbag

Re: Dodgy Make an Offer Buying Practice-Read the Note

digital*ghost — Mon, 02 Sep 2013 06:45:01 GMT

@crikey*mate wrote:
A man walked into a bar

and he had a handbag

I'm not going to say I know all the legal ins-and-outs of certain conditions that are stipulated in additional terms, because I don't, and I don't use any auto-accept/decline features on my listings with Best Offer for the precise reason that it has the potential to open up a whole can of worms I don't want to deal with (plus, there are some offers that come through with messages that aren't negotiations but make me decline the offer when I otherwise would have accepted it). But it's not comparable to the UPI process and payment terms for one (IMO) significant reason.

Nowhere on eBay does it say "a buyer has up to 8 days to pay for your item", but it does say "a seller has 48 hours to respond to your offer", if you're not prepared to wait 48 hours, IMO maybe BO isn't a feature you should use.

Personally, I think all comments and negotiations, terms etc from both buyer and seller should be given due notice, if I received an offer saying "if you don't respond to my offer within 24 hours", I wouldn't care what eBay policies are, I would decide not to accept it post-24 hours because I don't need the hassle of trying to bind a buyer to a purchase they clearly indicated they don't want (same as if someone contacted me to request I cancel their bid - I don't have to, but I would because it's easier than the alternatives). I would have to be a bit of an a** to accept the offer after 24 hours (I wouldn't in all reality, in fact I'd probably reject it immediately - be it within 24 hours or not).

Re: Dodgy Make an Offer Buying Practice-Read the Note

thecatspjs — Mon, 02 Sep 2013 07:26:03 GMT

Yes, I can see your position, but I will not take your advice to refrain from making offers with particular terms in them.

IMO there is no evidence either in this thread, or in the make-an-offer ebay policy that identifies that I have breached any ebay rules. I also do not see that I am making a "demand" - my terms are a proposal to seller that is time limited. A seller can decline, or counter-offer, or accept or do nothing, they have a range of choices.

My position on this matter is not theoretical, it is based on a number of successful transactions through make an offer that have included clear terms pertaining to my offer.

Nothwithstanding, I have had sellers decline my offers, and others that did not respond in any way, I have yet to strike a seller who has explicitly advised me that they have got any issue with my terms nor one that has accepted an offer, after terms regarding timeline for my offer have passed.

Except for a small number on these boards, I generally find the vast majority of sellers I deal with very open-minded to getting a sale.

Re: Dodgy Make an Offer Buying Practice-Read the Note

digital*ghost — Mon, 02 Sep 2013 07:56:43 GMT

@thecatspjs wrote:

Nothwithstanding, I have had sellers decline my offers, and others that did not respond in any way, I have yet to strike a seller who has explicitly advised me that they have got any issue with my terms nor one that has accepted an offer, after terms regarding timeline for my offer have passed.

Except for a small number on these boards, I generally find the vast majority of sellers I deal with very open-minded to getting a sale.

I'm not saying you have breached any policies, as I said I can't be sure what they are definitively because my understanding of them is based on how eBay provide them - that is, erring on the side of implicit rather than explicit. However, in regards to the OP, the best offer is explicity supposed to be for the item price only. If the OP had auto-accept activated, they would not have been given the chance to see the "inc delivery to Melbourne", and I have a vague memory of a similar circumstance (post sale) brought to the boards a long time ago and the seller being told by eBay that they were in the right to still expect P&H in addition to the offer price - which, in the grand scheme of things, means diddley (due to vagueness of memory and unreliability of info direct from eBay), but mentioning it none the less.

I'm open-minded about getting a sale, but TBH if a time-limited offer came through to me and the price and other terms were acceptable, my acceptance would largely depend on how it was worded - if it was just "if you do not respond to my offer within 24 hours, I will no longer be interested", it would immediately put me off-side with the mannerism, and I'd be very unlikely to feel the person is a desirable trading partner. If the tone was friendlier and the term qualified with sound reasoning, I would be much more amenable.

Re: Dodgy Make an Offer Buying Practice-Read the Note

davewil1964 — Mon, 02 Sep 2013 08:03:02 GMT

@thecatspjs wrote:
Yes, I can see your position, but I will not take your advice to refrain from making offers with particular terms in them.

IMO there is no evidence either in this thread, or in the make-an-offer ebay policy that identifies that I have breached any ebay rules. I also do not see that I am making a "demand" - my terms are a proposal to seller that is time limited. A seller can decline, or counter-offer, or accept or do nothing, they have a range of choices.

My position on this matter is not theoretical, it is based on a number of successful transactions through make an offer that have included clear terms pertaining to my offer.

Nothwithstanding, I have had sellers decline my offers, and others that did not respond in any way, I have yet to strike a seller who has explicitly advised me that they have got any issue with my terms nor one that has accepted an offer, after terms regarding timeline for my offer have passed.

Except for a small number on these boards, I generally find the vast majority of sellers I deal with very open-minded to getting a sale.

I wouldn't communicate post-offer, but I suspect you would be able to work out my reaction. Have you tested sellers who have declined your terms for their reactions.?