topic Re: Shipping Methods that meet criteria for PayPal Seller Protection? in Selling

Shipping Methods that meet criteria for PayPal Seller Protection?

2012rly — Mon, 30 Sep 2013 02:12:08 GMT

Hi, Can anyone tell me what methods of Australia Post parcel post meet the criteria for PayPal Seller Protection now that Registered is no longer available? Is Tracking sufficient (ie normal parcel post) or do you also need Signature? I rang PayPal, but couldn't seem to get a straight answer. Thanks!

Re: Shipping Methods that meet criteria for PayPal Seller Protection?

digital*ghost — Mon, 30 Sep 2013 02:56:47 GMT

There are some minimal requirements that qualify as proof of post (eg receipt with buyer's postcode), but IMHO to have the best chance of successfully defending a claim, you need documentation that shows the address the parcel was sent to is the same as the address on the payment notification, as well as proof that it was at least posted (like a lodgement receipt or tracking event). While registered is no longer an option for parcels (it's still available for letters), signature on delivery is an optional extra ($2.95) and should give you that (note that SOD does not include any insurance like registered did, that's an extra $1.50 per $100, or part thereof).

Click and Send also provides that documentation, whether you are using the eBay flat rate satchels or processing standard parcels (online). Just be sure your PO knows how to process the standard ones, because many don't and attach new tracking numbers / barcodes to the parcels so that the original tracking number never shows a scan event).

Express post should also provide all the right documentation, as long as you don't use pre-paid satchels, and I think Express Post Platinum will also provide it, even if using pre-paid satchels.

Re: Shipping Methods that meet criteria for PayPal Seller Protection?

this-way-up — Mon, 30 Sep 2013 03:25:23 GMT

@2012rly wrote:
Hi, Can anyone tell me what methods of Australia Post parcel post meet the criteria for PayPal Seller Protection now that Registered is no longer available? Is Tracking sufficient (ie normal parcel post) or do you also need Signature? I rang PayPal, but couldn't seem to get a straight answer. Thanks!

A tracking number is fine. If the item does not fit in a pre-paid satchel with tracking, then you can get a tracking number label which comes with signature requirement (like registered).

The main thing to remember, is to put the tracking number on the listing within 24 hours of posting. It is a good idea to ask the PO to scan the number into their system while you are there. That way, as soon as you get home the tracking number will be active.

I know I will be told that I am wrong...but being told you are wrong and being wrong are two different things 🙂 Paypal cannot give you a straight answer because they don't have one ! The buyer gets protection not the seller. If a buyer asks Paypal for a refund then the seller almost automatically does not qualify for seller protection. A buyer can only ask for a refund for two reasons. Either not received or not as described... If not received, the only hope for the seller is the tracking number. All the tracking does is show that something was sent - there is no proof of what was sent. If they claim not as described the seller loses again because all Paypal can do assume the buyer is right because Paypal have not seen the item. So all Paypal can do is ask the buyer to send the item back and in return, Paypal take (by force) the money out of the seller's account and refund the buyer, including posatage!

And just to add insult to injury...If a buyer does win a refund request through Paypal (as if they can lose) then Paypal also refund the fees out of the seller's account...eg. If the item is $50 then the seller gets about $48.50. The $1.50 is fees...When the buyer is granted a refund the whole $50 is taken from the seller.

Re: Shipping Methods that meet criteria for PayPal Seller Protection?

digital*ghost — Mon, 30 Sep 2013 03:48:10 GMT

@this-way-up wrote:

A tracking number is fine. If the item does not fit in a pre-paid satchel with tracking, then you can get a tracking number label which comes with signature requirement (like registered).
The main thing to remember, is to put the tracking number on the listing within 24 hours of posting. It is a good idea to ask the PO to scan the number into their system while you are there. That way, as soon as you get home the tracking number will be active.
I know I will be told that I am wrong...but being told you are wrong and being wrong are two different things 🙂 Paypal cannot give you a straight answer because they don't have one ! The buyer gets protection not the seller. If a buyer asks Paypal for a refund then the seller almost automatically does not qualify for seller protection. A buyer can only ask for a refund for two reasons. Either not received or not as described... If not received, the only hope for the seller is the tracking number. All the tracking does is show that something was sent - there is no proof of what was sent. If they claim not as described the seller loses again because all Paypal can do assume the buyer is right because Paypal have not seen the item. So all Paypal can do is ask the buyer to send the item back and in return, Paypal take (by force) the money out of the seller's account and refund the buyer, including posatage!
And just to add insult to injury...If a buyer does win a refund request through Paypal (as if they can lose) then Paypal also refund the fees out of the seller's account...eg. If the item is $50 then the seller gets about $48.50. The $1.50 is fees...When the buyer is granted a refund the whole $50 is taken from the seller.

To clarify some of the things stated in this post...

A tracking number alone is not sufficient proof - there needs to be supporting documentation that shows the parcel attached to that tracking number was sent to the buyer's address. That's why normal parcel post and express pre-paid satchels will not qualify for Seller Protection (they have tracking numbers, but they do not provide any other documentation showing where the parcel was sent). Think about it for a moment... If the tracking number alone was sufficient, all a dodgy seller would need to do is send one parcel with a tracking number, then use it to defend any INR claim that might arise. It doesn't work.

Uploading the tracking number to eBay will not help defend a PayPal claim, for the same reason as above.

If PayPal issue a refund to the buyer, the refund the fees paid to them. If the payment was $50, then the $48~ is taken from the seller, and the remaining amount paid by PayPal.

Re: Shipping Methods that meet criteria for PayPal Seller Protection?

bigbrickshop — Mon, 30 Sep 2013 04:13:07 GMT

The actual wording according to PayPal:

What is proof of shipment?

For sellers, we require proof of shipment from you if a buyer files a chargeback or reversal for an unauthorised payment, or if the buyer claims the item wasn't received.

For buyers, if you file a claim for a 'significantly not-as-described' item, we may require you to ship the item back to the Seller. You will be required to show proof of shipment.

Buyers and sellers, at the very least, must provide documentation that includes the date the item was sent, plus one of:

An official acceptance by the shipper, such as a postmark or online status (status that shows the item was delivered is also acceptable)
The recipient's delivery address showing at least the state, city and postcode (or international equivalent)
A receipt from Australia Post showing at least the recipient's suburb, city or postcode (or international equivalent)

https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/security/sell-shippingrecommendations

Re: Shipping Methods that meet criteria for PayPal Seller Protection?

this-way-up — Mon, 30 Sep 2013 04:33:10 GMT

@digital*ghost wrote:

If PayPal issue a refund to the buyer, the refund the fees paid to them. If the payment was $50, then the $48~ is taken from the seller, and the remaining amount paid by PayPal.

I have thought about it. The actual tracking method only confirms that "something" was sent and delivered.

A buyer can only claim either not received OR not as described... OK, not received is pretty easy. If the buyer did not get the item then they did not get it and all the tracking in the world will only confirm that "something" was delivered. That is why I used the word "almost". As for not as described, with out referring to any individuals, people have great difficulty in understanding what they read. I guess that is why we see so many listings that simply say "see the photos".

I can assure you, because I have a screen shot of my account to prove it. Paypal take the full amount paid by the buyer including postage and fees the very second that a buyer clicks on the refund button. The funds are placed "on hold". If by chance the buyer does not comply with the proccess and the funds are given back to the seller, the amount given back is less the fees...and I have the screen shots to prove it ! If the buyer does actually get the refund it includes the fees that Paypal have been paid, Paypal do not give the fees back to the seller.

The main question the OP is asking, is how to qualify for seller protection when Paypal are not giving a straight answer...The answer is - It is "almost" immpossible to qualify for seller protection and that is why Paypal are not giving a straight answer 🙂

Re: Shipping Methods that meet criteria for PayPal Seller Protection?

digital*ghost — Mon, 30 Sep 2013 04:57:37 GMT

@this-way-up wrote:
@digital*ghost wrote:

If PayPal issue a refund to the buyer, the refund the fees paid to them. If the payment was $50, then the $48~ is taken from the seller, and the remaining amount paid by PayPal.

I have thought about it. The actual tracking method only confirms that "something" was sent and delivered.

A buyer can only claim either not received OR not as described... OK, not received is pretty easy. If the buyer did not get the item then they did not get it and all the tracking in the world will only confirm that "something" was delivered. That is why I used the word "almost". As for not as described, with out referring to any individuals, people have great difficulty in understanding what they read. I guess that is why we see so many listings that simply say "see the photos".

In answer to the question Is Tracking sufficient (ie normal parcel post) or do you also need Signature?, you replied "A tracking number is fine" - I don't see the word almost in that answer, and went on to say that if an item won't fit into a pre-paid satchel, then pay for SOD to get the tracking number.

You also said "the only hope for the seller is the tracking number". I still don't see any "almost" in that.

If I have a stamped lodgement receipt showing that an article was sent to the right address, even without a tracking number I will be able to use it to successfully defend an INR claim. The purpose of my response to you is that a tracking number alone is not the seller's "only hope", and it is not "fine" if that's all you have.

I was wrong about the refund issue, though - I have never had a payment forcefully refunded from my account, only voluntarily, and in that case the fees were paid back by PayPal.

Re: Shipping Methods that meet criteria for PayPal Seller Protection?

thecatspjs — Mon, 30 Sep 2013 05:10:31 GMT

Proof of shipment (or sending) is different from proof of addressee. I recall proof of addressee details it is mentioned under eligibility section for seller protection.

Whilst paypal appear to accept lodgement receipt with postcode details as proof of addressee on occassion - their agreement is written in such a way that it is not a given.

I would never send anything prepaid without filling out a AP lodgement form and having stamped by post office at lodgement and attaching tracking number to that. It takes a few extra minutes, but well worth the peace of mind - as well as providing AP addressee proof in missing parcel investigation when pursuing compensation.

Re: Shipping Methods that meet criteria for PayPal Seller Protection?

this-way-up — Mon, 30 Sep 2013 05:32:32 GMT

@digital*ghost wrote:

In answer to the question Is Tracking sufficient (ie normal parcel post) or do you also need Signature?, you replied "A tracking number is fine" - I don't see the word almost in that answer, and went on to say that if an item won't fit into a pre-paid satchel, then pay for SOD to get the tracking number.

You also said "the only hope for the seller is the tracking number". I still don't see any "almost" in that.

If I have a stamped lodgement receipt showing that an article was sent to the right address, even without a tracking number I will be able to use it to successfully defend an INR claim. The purpose of my response to you is that a tracking number alone is not the seller's "only hope", and it is not "fine" if that's all you have.

I was wrong about the refund issue, though - I have never had a payment forcefully refunded from my account, only voluntarily, and in that case the fees were paid back by PayPal.

I said for all to see above in my first post -

The buyer gets protection not the seller. If a buyer asks Paypal for a refund then the seller almost automatically does not qualify for seller protection.

I have increased the size of the "almost" just to make it easier to see 🙂

I also said in a later post -

As for not as described, with out referring to any individuals, people have great difficulty in understanding what they read. I guess that is why we see so many listings that simply say "see the photos".

As others have stated, just a tracking number is fine...It will show where it was sent from and where it gets delivered to.

I have never been through a "voluntarily" refund...I was not given the choice. I just woke up one morning to read an email saying that MY money was on hold. I didn't even know there was a problem because the buyer has never contacted me...The fact that Paypal had sent me an email 2 weeks earlier stating (I think in red bold letters) that the item qualified for seller protection means sweet f...nothing !

Re: Shipping Methods that meet criteria for PayPal Seller Protection?

digital*ghost — Mon, 30 Sep 2013 05:38:55 GMT

this-way-up wrote:

I said for all to see above in my first post -
The buyer gets protection not the seller. If a buyer asks Paypal for a refund then the seller almost automatically does not qualify for seller protection.

I have increased the size of the "almost" just to make it easier to see 🙂
I also said in a later post -
As for not as described, with out referring to any individuals, people have great difficulty in understanding what they read. I guess that is why we see so many listings that simply say "see the photos".

I never addressed either of those points in my posts. I have explained to you the points I addressed.

If you wish me to engage with you in a respectful discussion, don't accuse me of doing something you're doing yourself, and don't do it in a condescending manner.

Re: Shipping Methods that meet criteria for PayPal Seller Protection?

this-way-up — Mon, 30 Sep 2013 05:48:47 GMT

@digital*ghost wrote:

If you wish me to engage with you in a respectful discussion, don't accuse me of doing something you're doing yourself, and don't do it in a condescending manner.

I am sorry, I did not accuse you of anything...YOU condescendingly accused ME of not using the word "almost" as I stated, when in fact I had used the word "almost".

Re: Shipping Methods that meet criteria for PayPal Seller Protection?

digital*ghost — Mon, 30 Sep 2013 05:53:34 GMT

@this-way-up wrote:
@digital*ghost wrote:

If you wish me to engage with you in a respectful discussion, don't accuse me of doing something you're doing yourself, and don't do it in a condescending manner.

I am sorry, I did not accuse you of anything...YOU condescendingly accused ME of not using the word "almost" as I stated, when in fact I had used the word "almost".

I did not say you never used it, I showed it wasn't used in the points I was addressing. You have insinuated (more apt word than accused, granted), that I have not read / understood your post(s).

I am doing the same, but I do not feel that my tone is condescending.

I will not participate in this line of the discussion any further as I have said all I am prepared to on the matter.

Re: Shipping Methods that meet criteria for PayPal Seller Protection?

thecatspjs — Mon, 30 Sep 2013 06:00:14 GMT

I have paypal seller protection for item not received for every single thing I post.

No ifs, no buts, no maybes, no mights.

I know it. 100% know it.

I can prove lodgement and full addressee details on every single parcel I post. Whether click and send, pre-paid satchels, registered letter or my own packaging.

That being said, I note I have voluntarily refunded buyers who have not received items and successfully pursued Aust Post for compensation, because they lost it - and it is not right that they are not held accountable often enough.

Re: Shipping Methods that meet criteria for PayPal Seller Protection?

davewil1964 — Mon, 30 Sep 2013 06:19:56 GMT

@this-way-up wrote:
@digital*ghost wrote:

If PayPal issue a refund to the buyer, the refund the fees paid to them. If the payment was $50, then the $48~ is taken from the seller, and the remaining amount paid by PayPal.

I have thought about it. The actual tracking method only confirms that "something" was sent and delivered.

A buyer can only claim either not received OR not as described... OK, not received is pretty easy. If the buyer did not get the item then they did not get it and all the tracking in the world will only confirm that "something" was delivered. That is why I used the word "almost". As for not as described, with out referring to any individuals, people have great difficulty in understanding what they read. I guess that is why we see so many listings that simply say "see the photos".

I can assure you, because I have a screen shot of my account to prove it. Paypal take the full amount paid by the buyer including postage and fees the very second that a buyer clicks on the refund button. The funds are placed "on hold". If by chance the buyer does not comply with the proccess and the funds are given back to the seller, the amount given back is less the fees...and I have the screen shots to prove it ! If the buyer does actually get the refund it includes the fees that Paypal have been paid, Paypal do not give the fees back to the seller.

The main question the OP is asking, is how to qualify for seller protection when Paypal are not giving a straight answer...The answer is - It is "almost" immpossible to qualify for seller protection and that is why Paypal are not giving a straight answer 🙂

Please ascertain the facts before you spread more misinformation. If a Paypal transaction is reversed, the fees are also reversed. It does however show as a separate transaction.

As cats, said, there are ways of complying with seller protection for EVERY item you post. I don't bother with letters, but all my others are C&S and I am definitely covered, including for loss. I think. They haven't updated that C&S term yet have they, cats?

Re: Shipping Methods that meet criteria for PayPal Seller Protection?

this-way-up — Mon, 30 Sep 2013 06:54:03 GMT

@thecatspjs wrote:
I have paypal seller protection for item not received for every single thing I post.

No ifs, no buts, no maybes, no mights.

I know it. 100% know it.

I can prove lodgement and full addressee details on every single parcel I post. Whether click and send, pre-paid satchels, registered letter or my own packaging.

That being said, I note I have voluntarily refunded buyers who have not received items and successfully pursued Aust Post for compensation, because they lost it - and it is not right that they are not held accountable often enough.

OK...So that covers "item not received"...Good.

Allow me to give a real life example.

Several years ago I bought a battery from Kmart. I got it because it was cheap. It was reduced to $15 from well over $200. At that price checking does not matter, I just got it. When I got home I found that althought it looked like my Sony camera battery, it was in fact a different model.

A few months ago, I found that battery in amongst other stuff I am clearing out of my garage and listed it for auction on eBay. Start price $14.99. It did sell and the buyer was happy and left good FB for me...and we are both happy.

However, before it sold I got an email from another buyer asking if they could buy it and if it did not work could they smash it with a hammer and give me photo proof of it being smashed and get a refund...He was on my BBL before I even finished reading his email or sending my reply of "No".

Believe it or not...He would have qualified for a refund through Paypal if he gave photo proof of destruction !!! As an item Not As Described !!!. Think about it...He has an old battery that needs replacing and could you tell the difference between an old battery and a new battery when it's been smashed with a hammer ???

So you can prove delivery...Good...That leaves the buyer with "not as described". We do not need to look very far to see that even just one word can change the entire meaning for a buyer. Your item description can ALMOST mean something completely different to the buyer than what you actually stated in your description...And if a buyer files a Not As Described claim the seller has ALMOST no chance of qualifying for seller protection ! 🙂

Re: Shipping Methods that meet criteria for PayPal Seller Protection?

thecatspjs — Mon, 30 Sep 2013 07:07:27 GMT

@this-way-up wrote:
...And if a buyer files a Not As Described claim the seller has ALMOST no chance of qualifying for seller protection ! 🙂

Yes, indeed they might have got protection as it appears you still have not thought that in that situation you only would have only had to provide a copy of the ebay message as evidence of fraud to be considered in any paypal dispute..... but its hypothetical isn't it, as it didn't happen.

IMO those sellers that have a poor track record with multiple paypal claims from buyers may strike problems with qualifying for protection on an ongoing basis.

Re: Shipping Methods that meet criteria for PayPal Seller Protection?

digital*ghost — Mon, 30 Sep 2013 07:21:19 GMT

@this-way-up wrote:
.And if a buyer files a Not As Described claim the seller has ALMOST no chance of qualifying for seller protection ! 🙂

Not almost, actually.

There is technically no seller protection available for SNAD claims.

Note the following from the PayPal user agreement:

PayPal Seller Protection Policy
Eligibility
S3.1 If you are a seller, we may not deduct funds from your account in connection with a Reversal where the following requirements are met for a transaction:
The item is sold on eBay;
You receive payment via PayPal;
You provide us with valid Proof of Shipment; and
The item is sent to the address we specify on the payment notification or "Transaction Details Page" which can be accessed by logging in to your PayPal account

PayPal seller protection is a provision for INRs, not SNAD.

In SNAD claims, there is a "winner" and a "loser" - there is no provision for the "loser" to retain / regain the funds. (Although the decision can be appealed, and a discretionary payment issued).

In the case of a chargeback, the buyer can win but the seller still retains the funds - that's what seller protection is.

Buyer and Seller protections work separately and individually - they are not inherently intertwined, nor counter-act one another point by point.

Re: Shipping Methods that meet criteria for PayPal Seller Protection?

this-way-up — Mon, 30 Sep 2013 08:34:11 GMT

@digital*ghost wrote:

In the case of a chargeback, the buyer can win but the seller still retains the funds - that's what seller protection is.

OK...So in the case of a chargeback, the buyer can win. I assume you mean get a refund? and the seller can retain the funds, I assume you mean keep the money? and that's what seller protection is !!!

wool - eyes - over - pull ... just a sec I am trying to put these words together to make sence... over - wool - pull - eyes ... I will get it in a sec, just wait give me a chance... pull - eyes - wool - over...

I give in...How do you make the words pull - wool - over - eyes make sence?

Re: Shipping Methods that meet criteria for PayPal Seller Protection?

phorum_junkie* — Mon, 30 Sep 2013 08:56:48 GMT

Sorry but that is exactly what seller protection is about, if you have proof that you have sent the item to the address on the Paypal transaction page then you are indeed covered and if the buyer is able to prove to Paypal's satisfaction that it has not been delivered although AP claim it has then Paypal will cover the refund. If it shows as undelivered then the seller should be taking that up with AP and the buyer ceetainly shouldn't have to go tot the lengths of a chargeback to get their refund.

You can poo poo the facts all you want but those of us who have been selling for many, many years and using Paypal since its inception can attest to the fact that we have successfully defended claims and chargebacks when we have used the correct delivery products. For today those are mainly click & send, tracking with signature required, eparcel, express parcel (not satchel) and Platinum Express.

For some cheaper items that can be posted as large letters I will take the risk of just sticking a stamp on but in those cases I refund without question so there is no need for a buyer to even open a dispute never mind initiate a chargeback.

Re: Shipping Methods that meet criteria for PayPal Seller Protection?

davewil1964 — Mon, 30 Sep 2013 09:05:20 GMT

@this-way-up wrote:
@thecatspjs wrote:
I have paypal seller protection for item not received for every single thing I post.

No ifs, no buts, no maybes, no mights.

I know it. 100% know it.

I can prove lodgement and full addressee details on every single parcel I post. Whether click and send, pre-paid satchels, registered letter or my own packaging.

That being said, I note I have voluntarily refunded buyers who have not received items and successfully pursued Aust Post for compensation, because they lost it - and it is not right that they are not held accountable often enough.

OK...So that covers "item not received"...Good.

Allow me to give a real life example.

Several years ago I bought a battery from Kmart. I got it because it was cheap. It was reduced to $15 from well over $200. At that price checking does not matter, I just got it. When I got home I found that althought it looked like my Sony camera battery, it was in fact a different model.

A few months ago, I found that battery in amongst other stuff I am clearing out of my garage and listed it for auction on eBay. Start price $14.99. It did sell and the buyer was happy and left good FB for me...and we are both happy.

However, before it sold I got an email from another buyer asking if they could buy it and if it did not work could they smash it with a hammer and give me photo proof of it being smashed and get a refund...He was on my BBL before I even finished reading his email or sending my reply of "No".

Believe it or not...He would have qualified for a refund through Paypal if he gave photo proof of destruction !!! As an item Not As Described !!!. Think about it...He has an old battery that needs replacing and could you tell the difference between an old battery and a new battery when it's been smashed with a hammer ???

So you can prove delivery...Good...That leaves the buyer with "not as described". We do not need to look very far to see that even just one word can change the entire meaning for a buyer. Your item description can ALMOST mean something completely different to the buyer than what you actually stated in your description...And if a buyer files a Not As Described claim the seller has ALMOST no chance of qualifying for seller protection ! 🙂

You are selling a battery that you know doesn't work? Any issues that arise are entirely your own fault.

I have given you many benefits of the doubt. You claim to be an experienced member, yet continually post erroneous information.

This can only lead to one conclusion - you live under a bridge and eat billy goats.

Edit: And I suspect don't eat very often, given your MO.