topic Re: Item not received case opened on the same day as purchase? in Selling

Item not received case opened on the same day as purchase?

22toyz — Sun, 04 Nov 2012 02:35:25 GMT

Hello to Everyone

Long time reader first time poster! Just wanted to get some opinions on a transaction that is currently still active.

Customer X Purchased a product from us on Thursday afternoon - Under $90

this customer lives in Melbourne and we operated out of the Gold Coast so you can understand our geography.

Customer X then opens an item not received case in PAY PAL the very same day with a note that say's that the would like a valid online tracking number or a full refund of their purchase:O

For a few moments this did catch me off guard.

Now as sellers, we are not exactly new at this game and we try and stand out be being friendly, backing it up with great products and lightning post. After I packed the item, i sent a confirmation to the buyer, added a little freebie I am sure they would enjoy and had the item posted out this morning since our Post office is open on the weekend.

So where I would like someone to perhaps illuminate this topic is perhaps the motivations behind this buyers actions.

Is it to catch us unawares and force a possible reversal of funds through INR?

I am actually very well versed in PAY PAL' criteria for such events having been involved in both sides as a buyer and seller.

What we do not disclose to our buyers is that all of our items are tracked through the entire process.

We video tape our packing process and we

send via Parcel Post Satchels with tracking.
We photograph each packaged item with their tracking number and details visible, and we lodge over the counter and have all Proof of lodgement receipts filed with that days postage.

This way if an item not received case is opened on an item under $200, I can validate this online, I can then forward to PP the evidence they require as proof of shipment and lodgement

We actually do not pass the tracking number on to our customers unless they make a special request.

So thoughts? I have not heard from this customer over the weekend. Should I brace for this going south, my next thoughts is that he will probably open a NOT AS DESCRIBED case next. Has anyone else had a customer open a case of INR the same day they purchased?

Cheers

MATT

Re: Item not received case opened on the same day as purchase?

curraone — Sun, 04 Nov 2012 02:49:58 GMT

Is it possible he has you mixed up with another seller?

Reply to the dispute

but also write to your buyer

Re: Item not received case opened on the same day as purchase?

trulyspecialgoodies — Sun, 04 Nov 2012 02:54:07 GMT

I've had a newbie leave me neutral f/b the same day she purchased saying 'item not received'. When I looked at her f/b left for others I saw that she had done this to a few other sellers - some had been left a green dot with the same comment and others had a neutral. With this buyer I'd just forward him the tracking number and sit tight - it's not necessarily going to develop into a 'not as described' case. Check out his f/b left for others - this will give you an idea of what kind of buyer you are dealing with. Don't stress over it - you are obviously doing the right thing and he will get his item - wait and see what happens. Good luck.

Re: Item not received case opened on the same day as purchase?

phorum_junkie* — Sun, 04 Nov 2012 03:01:09 GMT

Photographic evidence means nothing and neither does the tracking number on a red or ordinary express satchel. If you used click & send or registered post, as you should do anyway for anything over $50, then just provide the tracking number.

Re: Item not received case opened on the same day as purchase?

digital*ghost — Sun, 04 Nov 2012 04:24:26 GMT

Photographic evidence means nothing

I believe someone was quite recently successful in defending a claim using various forms of evidence, including photographic and none of which is 'standard' acceptable proof of shipping by PayPal terms. And by successful PayPal decided in their favour. I'm not saying that will always be the case, but theoretically, evidence showing that you addressed a parcel to the correct address and online tracking which shows that parcel as having been lodged, is pretty much the same as any other evidence provided by AP, and certainly less questionable than a mere receipt showing a postcode, which PayPal supposedly accept.

If the buyer intended to open the case against this particular purchase, the best case scenario is that they're an extremely nervous buyer with paranoid tendencies and decided the best defence is offence. Either way, they obviously think it's some form of insurance against scammers or perhaps even sellers that are slow to post (you know, those slackers that take more than 5 minutes to have the parcel lodged at the Post Office... 😐 ).

I know it will hardly be the most popular (nor best) advice, therefore I do not offer it as such, but no way would I accept being treated like that (if it wasn't an error). I would have refunded them and blocked from further purchase. 😐

Re: Item not received case opened on the same day as purchase?

foxette-in-sox — Sun, 04 Nov 2012 04:44:08 GMT

Customer X then opens an item not received case in PAY PAL the very same day with a note that say's that the would like a valid online tracking number or a full refund of their purchase

For a few moments this did catch me off guard.

I would have called them AFTER I picked myself up off the floor in disbelief.

I also agree with DG though-refunded & blocked.

What a complete idiot they must be.

Re: Item not received case opened on the same day as purchase?

22toyz — Sun, 04 Nov 2012 05:07:02 GMT

Photographic evidence means nothing and neither does the tracking number on a red or ordinary express satchel.

This also used to be my belief, being on the end of a missing parcel my self as a buyer I filed an INR after about 2 weeks and PP found in my favor. The next day the decision was reversed as the seller had provided a photo of the parcel addressed to me, along with a receipt which simply had my postcode on it as proof of lodgement. I was out of Pocket $125, no item and Pay pal sided with the buyer and I lost. I fought it and a week later I still lost.

From memory, proof of lodgement is all a seller needs with PP to defend an INR case under $200 from memory unless that $$ figure has recently changed. They called it reasonable proof that the seller had successfully carried out their duties.

An over the counter lodgement with tracking, and then proof that that tracking number matches the correct address on the parcel, in most cases PP will side with the seller.

Re: Item not received case opened on the same day as purchase?

22toyz — Sun, 04 Nov 2012 05:44:35 GMT

Sorry about the above mistake above, to clarify PAYPAL sided with the seller as they provided reasonable proof or postage. Not all sellers use Click and send, so they must be able to allow options for those who do not use the service, even if they do not advertise them as acceptable means

Re: Item not received case opened on the same day as purchase?

phorum_junkie* — Sun, 04 Nov 2012 05:53:41 GMT

The next day the decision was reversed as the seller had provided a photo of the parcel addressed to me, along with a receipt which simply had my postcode on it as proof of lodgement. I was out of Pocket $125, no item and Pay pal sided with the buyer and I lost. I fought it and a week later I still lost.

And did you ring Paypal, ask to speak to a supervisor and tell them that you would provide them with a Stat Dec confirming you had not received the parcel and if they still did not refund tell them you would be complaining to the Ombudsman?

I am 100% sure that had you gone down that route you would have had your refund.

Re: Item not received case opened on the same day as purchase?

tall_bearded — Sun, 04 Nov 2012 20:26:51 GMT

Pay PayPal is not insurance. It is a recovery service with a discretionary payment component where recovery is not possible.

Irrespective of the value of the goods contained in the parcel, if the seller can prove postage, the buyer has no right of recovery against the seller, and when it comes to what constitutes proof of postage, it’s been a very long time since a stamped registered post receipt or Click and Send have been the only kind of proof PayPal will accept. In fact today they will accept anything which provides reasonable grounds to believe it was and sent and sent to the correct address, with the minimum proof for parcels sent regular post being, a receipt that something was sent to the suburb in which the buyer resides.

As for the buyer lodging a dispute with Ombudsman: sellers can, buyers can’t.

Buyers can’t because, as PayPal is not insurance, if postage is proved and no right of recovery exists, then the only alternative is for PayPal to make a discretionary payment, with the only disputable decision arising being if PayPal’s decides not to make a discretionary payment; and the Ombudsman simply has no power to interfere with how a discretion should have been exercised.

This is significantly different to what would occur if PayPal was insurance, because a policy of insurance creates legal obligations. That is, if PayPal Buyer Protection was a policy of insurance, and if PayPal decided to reject the buyers claim, then the buyer can lodge a complaint with the ombudsman because, what is now being disputed is not how the discretion was exercised, but whether the claim was rightfully rejected.

Re: Item not received case opened on the same day as purchase?

sexy*harley*chick — Sun, 04 Nov 2012 23:27:29 GMT

I lost a case where i had only the tracking number on the new parcel post plus satchels, as there was no proof it was sent, tracking showed it was delivered, how stupid is that.

I also had 8 other sellers all state the same from this buyer, that buyer leaves a green dot, with "Bad seller" when i contacted all these sellers they all stated the same, buyer claimed item not received.

I got all sellers to email ebay and paypal and let them know that this buyer is a scammer, yet i still lost even with all that proof.

Ive not had any fb from him yet though, but he always leaves a positive anyway lol

Re: Item not received case opened on the same day as purchase?

tall_bearded — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 01:09:07 GMT

Phone PayPal and ask to speak to a supervisor.

Tell the supervisor that they have all the information and they need, and it’s time to reverse their decision. Also tell them they have 24 hours to do so, or you’ll lodge a dispute with the Financial Ombudsman Service.

My bet is, they’ll cave shortly after the O word is used, and if not, shortly after you actually lodge the complaint, and in any event it’s a free service so you have nothing to lose.

As for the other sellers, you may want to draw their attention to this thread.

Re: Item not received case opened on the same day as purchase?

*sparklz* — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 01:23:42 GMT

I had a buyer open a non received dipsute less than 24 hours after paying and then the next day changed it to item not as described and I phoned PP and they cancelled the dispute as the tracking was C&S and showing as lodged BUT had not been delivered as it was still in transit.

Re: Item not received case opened on the same day as purchase?

phorum_junkie* — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 05:04:01 GMT

As for the buyer lodging a dispute with Ombudsman: sellers can, buyers can’t.

What is that based on TB?

I have, as a buyer, filled in the complaint form as have several other regular posters.

In mine and other cases I know of if you are in the right then Paypal will cave in without it actually having to go through to the next stage but there is nothing in the on line form that appears to preclude a buyer applying and a case number being assigned.

Re: Item not received case opened on the same day as purchase?

tall_bearded — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 19:13:03 GMT

On refection, I think my statement may have been a little too broad in its application, mainly because it assumes all buyer disputes will be limited to a decision not to make a discretionary payment, whereas in some instances that may not be the case.

Take for instance an item not received claim.

When the buyer makes a claim, implied within the agreement is a requirement that PayPal conduct a proper investigation before making a decision, and if the outcome of that investigation is no recovery right exists, they can say to the buyer, “sorry but as postage is proved there is nothing more we can do” but this of course will erode buyer confidence in PayPal Buyer Protection and the more that confidence is eroded the less likely it is that buyers' will continue to use PayPal to protect their purchases. On the hand, to retain buy confidence they could say, “as the seller has proved postage we can’t recover. But fear not because we’ll compensate you by gifting you the money out of our own pocket”; that is make a discretionary payment.

Now there are two issues here.

The buyer was induced by PayPal to use PayPal because it offered Buyer Protection, and though some (most) buyers may think Protection = Insurance, the User Agreement makes it clear the service on offer is as Recovery Service and not Insurance.

However, as previously stated, though the protection is limited to the provision of a recovery service, there is an implied obligation on PayPal to conduct a proper investigation before making a determination, and if they find no recovery right exists, then, that decision would be disputable by the buyer. That is they could turn around to the Ombudsman and say, ‘they got the decision wrong because postage was never proved to the requisite degree, and as such, they should have, on my behalf, taken action against the seller to get my money back. Now, if the Ombudsman agrees that should have been the investigation outcome, then they could order PayPal to do exactly that.

On the other hand if the Ombudsman finds that PayPal’s decision was correct, the Ombudsman can’t go on say to PayPal, “though your decision was correct, you should have compensated the buyer by way of a discretionary payment”. That is, if at the core of the dispute is PayPal’s decision not to make a discretionary payment, then the only way the buyer can dispute that decision is by way of a Judicial Review, and the Ombudsman doesn’t have jurisdiction when it comes to Judicial Reviews.

So the short answer is, if the buyer disputes PayPal’s decision that no recovery right exists, the Ombudsman can hear the matter. On the other hand, if the buyer is disputing PayPal’s decision not to make a discretionary payment, then the Ombudsman must refuse then buyer’s application on the grounds of a want of jurisdiction.

Re: Item not received case opened on the same day as purchase?

foxette-in-sox — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 21:32:59 GMT

On the other hand, if the buyer is disputing PayPal’s decision not to make a discretionary payment, then the Ombudsman must refuse then buyer’s application on the grounds of a want of jurisdiction.

Sorry TB,but I beg to differ.That was EXACTLY my grounds for a complaint to the Ombudsman re an SNAD that was going to cost more to post back than original cost.I 'won' ie Paypal granted me a discretionary payment AFTER the Ombudsman contacted them.

JMO but Paypal doesn't like when people complain to Ombudsman as it probably costs them more time & money to respond than it would to refund out of their own coffers so to speak.

Re: Item not received case opened on the same day as purchase?

tall_bearded — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 02:51:46 GMT

I take it the facts in your case were as follows.

You bought something, which you say was SNAD.

You lodged a claim with PayPal and they told you to send it back, and when the seller confirms receipt, they (PayPal) will require the seller to provide a refund.

Now if I understand you correctly, if you had sent it back, the cost of returning it would have been more than you paid for it. Therefore, you disputed PayPal decision that before you got your refund you had to send it back, and if that is the case, you placed PayPal in a very awkward position.

When you paid with PayPal, you agreed that should the item not be as described you would return it to the seller at you own cost before you got the refund. On the other hand, when the seller offered PayPal they created a legal obligation on PayPal to ensure that, when it comes to SNAD claims, any refund was conditional on the item being returned at the buyer expense. Therefore, on the one hand, if PayPal made you return it, any benefit you would have obtained vide PayPal Buyer Protection policy would have been rendered a nullity. On the other hand, if PayPal decided to let you keep it, but at the same time force the seller to give you a refund, then this would lead to a complaint by the seller that PayPal had breached their own agreement. From this point onwards, legally, it would get very messy and costly, not the least of which being, a decision that you were allowed to keep something without paying for it.

The solution. Get rid of the problem by making an ex-gratia payment. That is the discretionary payment wasn’t what was being disputed. Instead, it was the solution to the dispute.

Re: Item not received case opened on the same day as purchase?

22toyz — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 07:35:01 GMT

Just to follow up on the original story for this sale,

As today is now Tuesday i have not received a message from said buyer at all, I have submitted the evidence to PAYPAL, they are now contacting the buyer. It still blows my mind a buyer can open an INR case the day of purchase and paypal put the funds on hold. For that to happen he had to purchase the product, then literally go to PP and open a case INR???? Really...who does that..then says he wants a full refund if I can not provide tracking...REALLY!!!! Wow...Guess I will just sit tight and wait for the item not as described case as soon as it does arrive though.

(Slams head on keyboard)

Re: Item not received case opened on the same day as purchase?

2106greencat — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 09:24:47 GMT

Offers Ice for Head X-(